Ghost Gunner

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: hatt
Zzzzz. You were just belittling another member because they went above and beyond what the law called for to cover their behind but now post a rank about the ATF trying to screw people so you better not do anything to make them mad, even legal stuff.


LoL ... yeah, seems like talking out of both side of his mouth.

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
There was just an incident in my area of a guy that was shot by the police because he was trying to get his gun out of the storage compartment in his car door as the police approached his vehicle. They shot and killed him. Then later they reported that the 45 ACP he had was originally bought by a county Sheriff and that the police where all over that Sheriff about the gun. So your 'theory' that the police don't care who owned the gun or where they guy got it are way off.


So who was this guy the police shot and killed? Was he a convicted felon with a criminal record, who should not have had the gun in the first place? Sounds like it. Otherwise why would they, as you say, "be all over that Sheriff about the gun"? What does any of that have to do with a receipt or paperwork? It doesn't. If you sell a gun to a felon it isn't going to matter what paperwork you produce, you broke the law, period. Your example does nothing to prove your point.

And I never said, "The police don't care who owned the gun", or, "You should sell to whoever hands over the money with no questions asked". Don't put words in my mouth. I said they don't care if you have paperwork proving it or not. If you sell a firearm to an individual who is prohibited from having it in the first place, all the paperwork in the world isn't going to save you. It is your responsibility to keep the weapon in legal hands.... Not to provide paperwork. You obviously don't know the difference.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
There was just an incident in my area of a guy that was shot by the police because he was trying to get his gun out of the storage compartment in his car door as the police approached his vehicle. They shot and killed him. Then later they reported that the 45 ACP he had was originally bought by a county Sheriff and that the police where all over that Sheriff about the gun. So your 'theory' that the police don't care who owned the gun or where they guy got it are way off.


So who was this guy the police shot and killed? Was he a convicted felon with a criminal record, who should not have had the gun in the first place? Sounds like it. Otherwise why would they, as you say, "be all over that Sheriff about the gun"? What does any of that have to do with a receipt or paperwork? It doesn't. If you sell a gun to a felon it isn't going to matter what paperwork you produce, you broke the law, period. Your example does nothing to prove your point.

And I never said, "The police don't care who owned the gun", or, "You should sell to whoever hands over the money with no questions asked". Don't put words in my mouth. I said they don't care if you have paperwork proving it or not. If you sell a firearm to an individual who is prohibited from having it in the first place, all the paperwork in the world isn't going to save you. It is your responsibility to keep the weapon in legal hands.... Not to provide paperwork. You obviously don't know the difference.


How do you know that guy didn't get the gun 2nd or 3rd hand after the Sheriff sold it. They never said if the guy obtained it directly from the Sheriff, only that the gun was originally bought by and registered to the Sheriff. He could have sold it to someone who had no police record and then the gun got sold again many times after that. And if that Sheffif was sloppy and had NO record of who he sold the gun to, then it's just his word that he didn't sell it to a felon. Would you really want that kind of attention just because you didn't cover yourself? I wouldn't.

Like I said, once it leaves your hands you have ZERO control over it. I'd rather take matters into my own hands and ensure I'm NOT associated with the gun if I don't own it anymore. You do whatever you want, and I'll do what I want. You're the one trying to convince me I should operate in a sloppy manner ... no thanks.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: billt460
If you sell a gun to a felon it isn't going to matter what paperwork you produce, you broke the law, period. Your example does nothing to prove your point.


It actually does prove my point. How are you going to verify if someone is a felon or not without doing a background check? Yeah, you can't. Per the law, I'm actually supposed to make the private sale go through a licensed gun dealer who can get a background check done on the buyer. I'm pretty sure it's a law that hardly anyone even knows about or abides by when doing a private sale. And I'm not totally sure, but I believe the law only applies to handguns, not for rifles/shotguns.

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
How are you going to verify if someone is a felon or not without doing a background check? Yeah, you can't.


And once again what good is having paperwork in that case? It isn't, pure and simple. If anything it will get you into trouble by tying you to a bad sale. Look, I'm not trying to convince you to do anything. All of your meaningless hypothetical rants don't change what is and isn't. Do whatever you want. I'm simply telling you, (just as Astro did), you are under no lawful obligation to produce paperwork when you LAWFULLY sell a firearm in a private transaction. You're the one trying to convince everyone this is some type of requirement. IT ISN'T. End of story.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
How are you going to verify if someone is a felon or not without doing a background check? Yeah, you can't.


And once again what good is having paperwork in that case? It isn't, pure and simple. If anything it will get you into trouble by tying you to a bad sale. Look, I'm not trying to convince you to do anything. All of your meaningless hypothetical rants don't change what is and isn't. Do whatever you want. I'm simply telling you, (just as Astro did), you are under no lawful obligation to produce paperwork when you LAWFULLY sell a firearm in a private transaction. You're the one trying to convince everyone this is some type of requirement. IT ISN'T. End of story.


I'm not trying to convince you or anyone else what to do in their state - do what your state's laws say. Nothing is 'hypothetical' on what I've said ... it's the law here, it's real.

I'm telling you what the LAWS are in my state - so yeah, it technically IS a requirement ... which I'm sure many people don't follow because they don't even know the law exists. So if I sell a gun privately without abiding by the law - which is doing the sale through a dealer and doing a background check on the buyer - then I'm technically breaking the law. What part of that don't you understand? You think I should just sell it to whoever hands over cash and not do what the law says? That's some great advice - LoL.

So yeah ... I AM definitely under obligation of the law to produce paperwork to lawfully sell a firearm in a private transaction. Again, what part of that don't you understand?

 

[TheOnlySarge]

Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: hatt
Look like that FFL hasn't done much for your knowledge in this area.


I'm not going to play word games with you. As I told you, I've held a Class 1 FFL for over 15 years. And in that time I've personally dealt with the ATF many times regarding paperwork, along with what you can and cannot do. Especially in regards to buying, selling and transferring firearms. I will tell you this much. What you're doing, or thinking you can do is foolish. You are treading in a very grey area with a 3 letter government agency.

Another thing I have found in dealing with these people for over a period of a decade and a half, is they are very politically motivated. Their posture is ever changing depending on the political climate they're working in, or under. Today, under an extremely liberal, anti gun Presidential Administration, they are far more likely to respond in a negative way, to matters that might have gotten by with a "raised eyebrow" under the more gun friendly administrations of the past. I know this for a fact, because I have had several agents tell me that all but word for word. The IRS is no different. Look how they have gone after people with opposing political views in the last few years. All of them were every bit as "right" as you, if not more so. It didn't get them very far, did it?

ATF agents are no different than anyone else. If you treat them cordially, and with utmost respect, they will respond accordingly..... Most of the time. But if you act cocky, and try giving them a lot of slick talk in an attempt to act like you know more than they do, you're headed down a dead end road fast.

Again like the IRS, and most all other 3 letter government agencies, these people quite literally have the power of God, and can destroy your life with a single stroke of a pen. And if they're wrong, they'll walk away without so much as a, "we're sorry". And they don't have to be right, in order for you to be wrong. You're playing with fire. And there is zero reward even if you don't get burned. I'm sorry, but you're pushing a bad position. To me that pretty much defines stupidity, because much like Russian Roulette, it's all risk and no reward.

AMEN!!! I also was a FFL1 for many years. I totally agree the ATF "rules" are interpenetrated however they wish. I was gunsmithing out of my shop here @ the ranch it and the ATF wanted a brick and mortar storefront. Harassment is an understatement. ATF will harass/terrorize/intimidate you until they get what they want. Screw the law...they do not care what they law is. I was super nice and polite at all times and I do believe that kept them from turning up the heat even more frankly. All depends on the agent(s). I am now a FFL3 and I have not heard from them since. The above statement/guy is dead right and accurate. The Government will do whatever it wishes regardless of any law on the books.

 

[TheOnlySarge]

Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
There was just an incident in my area of a guy that was shot by the police because he was trying to get his gun out of the storage compartment in his car door as the police approached his vehicle. They shot and killed him. Then later they reported that the 45 ACP he had was originally bought by a county Sheriff and that the police where all over that Sheriff about the gun. So your 'theory' that the police don't care who owned the gun or where they guy got it are way off.


So who was this guy the police shot and killed? Was he a convicted felon with a criminal record, who should not have had the gun in the first place? Sounds like it. Otherwise why would they, as you say, "be all over that Sheriff about the gun"? What does any of that have to do with a receipt or paperwork? It doesn't. If you sell a gun to a felon it isn't going to matter what paperwork you produce, you broke the law, period. Your example does nothing to prove your point.

And I never said, "The police don't care who owned the gun", or, "You should sell to whoever hands over the money with no questions asked". Don't put words in my mouth. I said they don't care if you have paperwork proving it or not. If you sell a firearm to an individual who is prohibited from having it in the first place, all the paperwork in the world isn't going to save you. It is your responsibility to keep the weapon in legal hands.... Not to provide paperwork. You obviously don't know the difference.

Your wrong friend. In Texas if I sell a gun to a felon, having no knowledge he is a felon, he broke the law. Not me.
Private sales of a firearm in Texas require my best effort to:
Determine the other party is of legal age
Not a felon
Not a gang member.
That means I ask him and he says he is 21 and no to my other questions the onus is on him....not me. I broke no laws. He did.
If my guns are stolen I am not required to report it. If I sell a gun in a private sale I do not have any paperwork to fill out. Criminals will be criminals. Dont make criminals out of law abiding citizens. Far and away guns held by felons have been stolen....not bought.

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: TheOnlySarge
In Texas if I sell a gun to a felon, having no knowledge he is a felon, he broke the law. Not me.
Private sales of a firearm in Texas require my best effort to:
Determine the other party is of legal age
Not a felon
Not a gang member.


You are correct. I should have mentioned HAVING NO KNOWLEDGE. along with, BEST EFFORT TO DETERMINE And there in lies the problem. Who determines what a, "best effort" is? How can you as a citizen possibly research who is a gang member, and who is not? The cops have a hard enough time trying to determine that.

A lot of this stuff is open to interpretation. And you staying out of trouble if things should get dicey, is often determined by who interprets it. Either way receipts are not necessary, or legally required. I've sold many guns through my FFL. I have never sold any privately. That will be my wife's job when I take a dirt nap. And my collection is sufficiently large enough where she isn't going to be messing around with private sales to citizens. More than likely it will be an auction house or private appraising firm taking all of it on consignment.

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: hatt
Zzzzz.


Here I could not agree more with you. You really need to wake up.

 

[TheOnlySarge]

Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: TheOnlySarge
In Texas if I sell a gun to a felon, having no knowledge he is a felon, he broke the law. Not me.
Private sales of a firearm in Texas require my best effort to:
Determine the other party is of legal age
Not a felon
Not a gang member.


You are correct. I should have mentioned HAVING NO KNOWLEDGE. along with, BEST EFFORT TO DETERMINE And there in lies the problem. Who determines what a, "best effort" is? How can you as a citizen possibly research who is a gang member, and who is not? The cops have a hard enough time trying to determine that.

A lot of this stuff is open to interpretation. And you staying out of trouble if things should get dicey, is often determined by who interprets it. Either way receipts are not necessary, or legally required. I've sold many guns through my FFL. I have never sold any privately. That will be my wife's job when I take a dirt nap. And my collection is sufficiently large enough where she isn't going to be messing around with private sales to citizens. More than likely it will be an auction house or private appraising firm taking all of it on consignment.

Well actually I believe it says "Best faith effort". The bottom line here is the guy buying the gun has to be the one responsible he/she is of legal status to own the gun.
Not the seller.
I may trade/sell/buy 2-3 a year. But I have a extensive collection. When I take the big dirt nap my kids/son in laws/grandkids already know who gets what. All ammo/firearms will stay in the family/

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
So if I sell a gun privately without abiding by the law - which is doing the sale through a dealer and doing a background check on the buyer - then I'm technically breaking the law.


NO YOU ARE NOT. A private citizen IS NOT required to do a background check when making a private sale. No state requires this by law. If they did, trade at gun shows amongst attendees could not and would not exist. You are confusing what a state might REQUEST, as opposed to what is the LAW. You are also confusing new gun sales, which must be carried out by a licensed FFL holder, and DO require a background check, to private used gun sales by citizens. They are not handled the same.

http://smartgunlaws.org/background-check-procedures-policy-summary/

"1. Private Sales: The single largest gap in the federal background check requirement is that unlicensed, private sellers are not required to conduct background checks."

 

[PR1955]

No Billt, You are wrong-at least in New York State. Any handgun purchase or transfer must be preceded by a background check. Direct sales or transfers, even between family members , is prohibited.

 

[Doog]

Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
So if I sell a gun privately without abiding by the law - which is doing the sale through a dealer and doing a background check on the buyer - then I'm technically breaking the law.


NO YOU ARE NOT. A private citizen IS NOT required to do a background check when making a private sale. No state requires this by law. If they did, trade at gun shows amongst attendees could not and would not exist. You are confusing what a state might REQUEST, as opposed to what is the LAW. You are also confusing new gun sales, which must be carried out by a licensed FFL holder, and DO require a background check, to private used gun sales by citizens. They are not handled the same.

http://smartgunlaws.org/background-check-procedures-policy-summary/

"1. Private Sales: The single largest gap in the federal background check requirement is that unlicensed, private sellers are not required to conduct background checks."


Michigan requires a buyer to have CPL or purchase license from the local Police to buy a handgun in a private sale. Long guns..not needed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_Michigan

 

[tdpark]

New York is the worst, all gun sales from pistols to long guns have to go through an ffl. Heck, technically, you cannot shoot your buddies gun as that is technically considered a transfer- such a [censored] poor law. NY sucks!!!!!

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
So if I sell a gun privately without abiding by the law - which is doing the sale through a dealer and doing a background check on the buyer - then I'm technically breaking the law.


NO YOU ARE NOT. A private citizen IS NOT required to do a background check when making a private sale. No state requires this by law. If they did, trade at gun shows amongst attendees could not and would not exist. You are confusing what a state might REQUEST, as opposed to what is the LAW. You are also confusing new gun sales, which must be carried out by a licensed FFL holder, and DO require a background check, to private used gun sales by citizens. They are not handled the same.

http://smartgunlaws.org/background-check-procedures-policy-summary/

"1. Private Sales: The single largest gap in the federal background check requirement is that unlicensed, private sellers are not required to conduct background checks."


Read the law below carefully - do you believe the actual law on the state's website or some bull on the internet. It also specifically calls out 'gun shows'. As I said, this is probably a law that hardly anyone abides by because they don't even know it exists. I don't know when this law came into effect.

http://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9.41.113

A snip-it is below ... pay particular attention to Section (3)(a) thru (e) which would apply to a private sale with neither party being a 'licensed dealer'.

Don't be surprised if a law like this hits other states, because this is an attempt to close loop holes in private sales of firearms to people who shouldn't legally posses them. IMO, it's easier and less risky for a criminal to purchase a firearm privately without a paper trail than it is to steal one, especially if the seller just hands the gun over and takes the guy's cash with no other effort involved.

=====================================

RCW 9.41.113
Firearm sales or transfers — Background checks—Requirements—Exceptions.

"(1) All firearm sales or transfers, in whole or part in this state including without limitation a sale or transfer where either the purchaser or seller or transferee or transferor is in Washington, shall be subject to background checks unless specifically exempted by state or federal law. The background check requirement applies to all sales or transfers including, but not limited to, sales and transfers through a licensed dealer, at gun shows, online, and between unlicensed persons.
(2) No person shall sell or transfer a firearm unless:
(a) The person is a licensed dealer;
(b) The purchaser or transferee is a licensed dealer; or
(c) The requirements of subsection (3) of this section are met.
(3) Where neither party to a prospective firearms transaction is a licensed dealer, the parties to the transaction shall complete the sale or transfer through a licensed dealer as follows:"
(a) The seller or transferor shall deliver the firearm to a licensed dealer to process the sale or transfer as if it is selling or transferring the firearm from its inventory to the purchaser or transferee, except that the unlicensed seller or transferor may remove the firearm from the business premises of the licensed dealer while the background check is being conducted. If the seller or transferor removes the firearm from the business premises of the licensed dealer while the background check is being conducted, the purchaser or transferee and the seller or transferor shall return to the business premises of the licensed dealer and the seller or transferor shall again deliver the firearm to the licensed dealer prior to completing the sale or transfer.
(b) Except as provided in (a) of this subsection, the licensed dealer shall comply with all requirements of federal and state law that would apply if the licensed dealer were selling or transferring the firearm from its inventory to the purchaser or transferee, including but not limited to conducting a background check on the prospective purchaser or transferee in accordance with federal and state law requirements and fulfilling all federal and state recordkeeping requirements.
(c) The purchaser or transferee must complete, sign, and submit all federal, state, and local forms necessary to process the required background check to the licensed dealer conducting the background check.
(d) If the results of the background check indicate that the purchaser or transferee is ineligible to possess a firearm, then the licensed dealer shall return the firearm to the seller or transferor.
(e) The licensed dealer may charge a fee that reflects the fair market value of the administrative costs and efforts incurred by the licensed dealer for facilitating the sale or transfer of the firearm.

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Read the law below carefully - do you believe the actual law on the state's website or some bull on the internet.


The only "bull on the Internet" is yours. There is no state in the country that as of now requires that private citizens get background checks to do a private gun sale. Go to any lawyer. They will tell you the exact same thing. You don't have a clue as to what your talking about. How could they possibly enforce such a law if they even had it. It would be completely impossible.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Read the law below carefully - do you believe the actual law on the state's website or some bull on the internet.


The only "bull on the Internet" is yours. There is no state in the country that as of now requires that private citizens get background checks to do a private gun sale. Go to any lawyer. They will tell you the exact same thing. You don't have a clue as to what your talking about.


LoL ... so you're going to argue over a law that is in black & white right on the WA website - did you read it? You tell me what you think that law means then. You really don't know how each state operates, so you're wrong. Send it to your 'lawyer' and see what he says.

 

[billt460]

Here is where you keep tripping up. According the U.S. Department of Justice, federal law does not require universal background checks on private sales in ANY state. Federal law supersedes state law in all 50 states. The law may as well not exist. Because you cannot be arrested for something the Federal government allows in every state in the Union. It can't and won't hold up. Anymore than if your state passed a law stating you did not have to pay Federal income tax would. It's as meaningless as if it didn't exist. You're arguing about nothing. Not that it's any surprise.

 

[hatt]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Read the law below carefully - do you believe the actual law on the state's website or some bull on the internet.


The only "bull on the Internet" is yours. There is no state in the country that as of now requires that private citizens get background checks to do a private gun sale. Go to any lawyer. They will tell you the exact same thing. You don't have a clue as to what your talking about.


LoL ... so you're going to argue over a law that is in black & white right on the WA website - did you read it? You tell me what you think that law means then. You really don't know how each state operates, so you're wrong. Send it to your 'lawyer' and see what he says.
Sure. He's already been doing it for 4-5 pages with the homemade lower stuff. It's clear as day you can sell one. Hasn't stopped him from arguing about the legality.