Ghost Gunner

[hatt]

Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: hatt
Quote:
...engaged in the business...
You missed that part. You also can't buy a pallet of stripped lowers and turn them into complete guns to sell. You can assemble them for personal use. If down the road you get tired of it you can sell.


When you sell a gun you manufactured for profit you are, "engaged in business". Look, I don't care what you do or don't do. You can build a rifle from a 80% lower for your own use. It is perfectly legal to do so. You CANNOT build a gun on a 80% lower that is non serialized and sell it... Nor can you stamp a B.S. "serial number" on it, in some half baked attempt to make it legit to sell. That is engaging in firearms manufacturing without a license. That is illegal.

From the ATF:
Quote:
Individuals manufacturing sporting-type firearms for their own use need not hold Federal Firearms Licenses (FFLs). However, we suggest that the manufacturer at least identify the firearm with a serial number as a safeguard in the event that the firearm is lost or stolen. Also, the firearm should be identified as required in 27 CFR 478.92 if it is sold or otherwise lawfully transferred in the future.


More from the ATF:
Quote:
The GCA at 18 U.S.C. 923(i) provides, in part, that licensed manufacturers and importers must “identify”
each firearm manufactured or imported by a serial number in the manner prescribed by
regulation. Federal regulations at 27 CFR 478.92(a)(1) further require importers and manufacturers to
identify each firearm by engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing
the individual serial number and certain additional information - the model (if designated), caliber/gauge,
manufacturer’s name, and place of origin on the frame, receiver, or barrel - at a minimum depth. Section
478.92(a)(2) specifies that a “firearm frame or receiver that is not a component part of a complete weapon
at the time it is sold, shipped, or otherwise disposed of … must be identified as required by this section.”

I guess you're new to guns. If you had been around longer you'd know there are million of imported guns with horrid hand engraving by the importer.

The only real question is whether a non licensee would need to put any information on the gun to sell. "Should" isn't must.

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: hatt
If you had been around longer you'd know there are million of imported guns with horrid hand engraving by the importer.


And every one of those importers are Licensed Manufactures. How they install serial numbers is meaningless as long as they're legible.

 

[hatt]

Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: hatt
If you had been around longer you'd know there are million of imported guns with horrid hand engraving by the importer.


And every one of those importers are Licensed Manufactures. How they install serial numbers is meaningless as long as they're legible.
LOL. You just can't bring yourself to say: "Oh, I was wrong. You can sell homemade ARs." LOLOLOL

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Sure there are forms for private sale and transfer of ownership of firearms, at least in WA. I'm betting most states operate this way.


I've been into owning and shooting firearms for over 45 years. And I've never even seen one of those, let alone know anyone who has ever filled one out. I've never heard it discussed. This is the first. Washington huh? Never set foot in the state. That's probably why.


Here's a 'Bill of Sale' form for a firearm if someone chose to use it. Not required by law.

http://billofsale.net/az/arizona-firearm-bill-of-sale/

 

[TheOnlySarge]

All my guns were lost in a terrible boating accident.

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: hatt
You just can't bring yourself to say: "Oh, I was wrong. You can sell homemade ARs."


If you built them on a finished serialized lower, then yes. But don't let me stop you from doing stupid tricks to win stupid prizes.

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Not required by law.


Then why would you do it?

 

[hatt]

Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: hatt
You just can't bring yourself to say: "Oh, I was wrong. You can sell homemade ARs."


If you built them on a finished serialized lower, then yes. But don't let me stop you from doing stupid tricks to win stupid prizes.
You need to stop getting your info from the old guys hanging at the gun counter chewing the fat. Go to atf.gov and look around one day.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Not required by law.


Then why would you do it?


Because guns I bought new (and therefore are tied to me) would no longer be tied to ME if I have proof they were sold to someone else. They can go looking for the guns someplace else (beside me) if it comes down to that. Why the [censored] would I want guns to still be associated to me when I no longer own them?

 

[hatt]

As long as you're in a free state, if the police come asking about a gun you sold you simply tell them you sold it. If you remember who you sold it to you can tell them. If not, whatever. It happens every day. They aren't going to knock down your door. If several guns used in crimes gets tracked back to you they might.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: hatt
As long as you're in a free state, if the police come asking about a gun you sold you simply tell them you sold it. If you remember who you sold it to you can tell them. If not, whatever. It happens every day. They aren't going to knock down your door. If several guns used in crimes gets tracked back to you they might.


That's the part you never know about ... so IMO, better safe than sorry.

 

[hatt]

I sell a gun about every five years. If that. No worries for me. If you start having multiple guns come back in a short period of time it was because you were a straw-man for gangbangers or something shady. Even if you do a lot of trading there isn't going to be a problem. But hey. If someone is fine with paying a dealer to transfer, who cares. I wouldn't unless it was some great deal.

 

[Astro14]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
[ Don't be surprised if more states adopt similar laws as time goes on.


Sadly, I think you're right: the broad trend is toward more restrictive laws, including laws on the private transfer of guns...though many of the states that have enacted those restrictions have not seen a decrease in crime...Massachusetts, in particular, enacted those restrictions in 1998...and while crime has gone down in neighboring states like New Hampshire and Vermont (which have very few gun laws), crime has stayed relatively steady in Massachusetts...

Sounds like pro-gun propaganda, but, in fact, that was the conclusion of the Boston Globe. A paper that has long advocated more gun control.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2013...pkEM/story.html

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: hatt
Go to atf.gov and look around one day.


I've held a Class 1 FFL for over 15 years. How about you?

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Because guns I bought new (and therefore are tied to me) would no longer be tied to ME if I have proof they were sold to someone else. They can go looking for the guns someplace else (beside me) if it comes down to that. Why the [censored] would I want guns to still be associated to me when I no longer own them?


Why would they be "associated to you" if you sold them? You're not making sense. If you sell a gun to someone, and that gun turns up in a crime, it already been "proven" you no longer own it. Cops aren't stupid. Guns are sold and traded every day with no paperwork. Look at how many change hands at a single gun show. Do you think all of those people are running around filling out receipts? What do you think happens to them if any of those weapons turn up on the wrong side of the law?

You now know for a fact only 4 states in this country require what your talking about. Feel free to worry about nothing. Just don't try to convince me it's necessary.

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: Astro14
Sounds like pro-gun propaganda, but, in fact, that was the conclusion of the Boston Globe. A paper that has long advocated more gun control.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2013...pkEM/story.html


As always "gun control" has nothing to do with guns, and never has. It's all about "control".

 

[hatt]

Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: hatt
Go to atf.gov and look around one day.


I've held a Class 1 FFL for over 15 years. How about you?
Look like that FFL hasn't done much for your knowledge in this area. If a completed 80% lower were illegal for the person that made it to sell you would have posted the ATF letter. There are thousands of ATF letters posted on the internets but oddly that letter fell through the cracks. All you posted was a rule that applied to people in the business of selling firearms. Which clearly, by ATF definition, doesn't apply to someone occasionally making a gun for personal use.

Quote:
The term “engaged in the business” as applied
to a dealer in firearms means a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in
firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and
profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms. A dealer can be “engaged in the
business” without taking title to the firearms that are sold. However, the term does not include a
person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of
a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms.
18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(21)(C).

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: hatt
Look like that FFL hasn't done much for your knowledge in this area.


I'm not going to play word games with you. As I told you, I've held a Class 1 FFL for over 15 years. And in that time I've personally dealt with the ATF many times regarding paperwork, along with what you can and cannot do. Especially in regards to buying, selling and transferring firearms. I will tell you this much. What you're doing, or thinking you can do is foolish. You are treading in a very grey area with a 3 letter government agency.

Another thing I have found in dealing with these people for over a period of a decade and a half, is they are very politically motivated. Their posture is ever changing depending on the political climate they're working in, or under. Today, under an extremely liberal, anti gun Presidential Administration, they are far more likely to respond in a negative way, to matters that might have gotten by with a "raised eyebrow" under the more gun friendly administrations of the past. I know this for a fact, because I have had several agents tell me that all but word for word. The IRS is no different. Look how they have gone after people with opposing political views in the last few years. All of them were every bit as "right" as you, if not more so. It didn't get them very far, did it?

ATF agents are no different than anyone else. If you treat them cordially, and with utmost respect, they will respond accordingly..... Most of the time. But if you act cocky, and try giving them a lot of slick talk in an attempt to act like you know more than they do, you're headed down a dead end road fast.

Again like the IRS, and most all other 3 letter government agencies, these people quite literally have the power of God, and can destroy your life with a single stroke of a pen. And if they're wrong, they'll walk away without so much as a, "we're sorry". And they don't have to be right, in order for you to be wrong. You're playing with fire. And there is zero reward even if you don't get burned. I'm sorry, but you're pushing a bad position. To me that pretty much defines stupidity, because much like Russian Roulette, it's all risk and no reward.

 

[hatt]

Zzzzz. You were just belittling another member because they went above and beyond what the law called for to cover their behind but now post a rank about the ATF trying to screw people so you better not do anything to make them mad, even legal stuff.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Because guns I bought new (and therefore are tied to me) would no longer be tied to ME if I have proof they were sold to someone else. They can go looking for the guns someplace else (beside me) if it comes down to that. Why the [censored] would I want guns to still be associated to me when I no longer own them?


Why would they be "associated to you" if you sold them? You're not making sense. If you sell a gun to someone, and that gun turns up in a crime, it already been "proven" you no longer own it. Cops aren't stupid. Guns are sold and traded every day with no paperwork. Look at how many change hands at a single gun show. Do you think all of those people are running around filling out receipts? What do you think happens to them if any of those weapons turn up on the wrong side of the law?

You now know for a fact only 4 states in this country require what your talking about. Feel free to worry about nothing. Just don't try to convince me it's necessary.


Really, you don't get it? A gun will always be associated with the original legal buyer if that gun was bought from a legal gun dealer. What part of that don't you understand. If I sell a gun that is registered to me without somehow transferring the ownership then I AM tied to that gun by the paper trail. If I sell a gun and then someone else sells it or it gets stolen or whatever, and it for some unfortunate reason is used in a crime, then guess what house the police are going to be going to first? I would rather just make sure nothing like that happens because I don't want to give the police any excuses to barged in to my house with a search warrant and tear the [censored] out of my place looking for some gun that was used in a crime.

There was just an incident in my area of a guy that was shot by the police because he was trying to get his gun out of the storage compartment in his car door as the police approached his vehicle. They shot and killed him. Then later they reported that the 45 ACP he had was originally bought by a county Sheriff and that the police where all over that Sheriff about the gun. So your 'theory' that the police don't care who owned the gun or where they guy got it are way off. I DON'T want any attention like that, and you never know what's going to happen to a gun you once it leaves you and is in the hands of someone else.

I'm not trying to 'convince' you of anything ... I'm talking about what I would do. You can do whatever the [censored] you want to do, so stop trying to convince me I should just sell firearms to whoever hands over money with no questions asked, or no paperwork that shows I sold it to someone else and I no longer own it.