Ghost Gunner

[CT8]

Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Ghost Gunner

You buy the 80% completed AR-15 lower receiver and then buy the self contained CNC machine that completes the rest of the 20%. You now have a fully functional lower receiver that has no serial number and is completely untraceable. All the other parts of the AR-15 can be purchased easily online.

There are other companies that sell the 80% lowers etc. They are really overpriced because you can buy a fully machined and and anodised lower from a milspec forging company at times for $49.00. Machining out your own with a jig and drill press give pride in doing the job. With a cnc mill it takes about 3 minutes of mill time once set up. With a jig and a drill press it takes an afternoon as you want it done proper and proper takes time. The best reward is a sense of accomplishment.

 

[Rand]

Originally Posted By: Bandito440
Originally Posted By: ATF
Receivers that meet the definition of a “firearm” must have markings, including a serial number. See 27 CFR § 478.92 (Firearm manufacturers marking requirements).

This is right from the ATF's Q&A section on 80% receivers.

Whether you agree with it, or interpret the law differently, is certainly your choice. I don't spend my time worried about the government going door-to-door seizing guns, so this has no value to me. That's another couple thousand dollars that I can save for my lakeside retirement home.


so who said it is 1500$?

Ghost Gunner 2
$250.00
from Op's link

Also 80% receiver are not considered firearms.
from your link bandito440.
Therefore no serial number needed.
It also doesnt say a person needs to get a serial number
anywhere I looked.

 

[Astro14]

Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
What good is having a serialized fully registered AR-15 when they come and take it from you ?

If you're the registered owner, they know where you live.


What on Earth is a fully registered gun?

I've never registered a gun.

Ever.

I fill out the 4473 when I buy it, but that's a record of sale. It has my address at the time of purchase.

Where do you live that guns have to be registered? Connecticut made certain guns illegal and required current owners to register them...but that's not true for most of the country,,.

 

[Al]

Originally Posted By: Astro14
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
What good is having a serialized fully registered AR-15 when they come and take it from you ?

If you're the registered owner, they know where you live.

What on Earth is a fully registered gun?
I've never registered a gun. Ever.
I fill out the 4473 when I buy it, but that's a record of sale. It has my address at the time of purchase.

Exactly.
And even if the "Gubernment" wanted to collect guns..how would they do it. There are not enough body bags to take care of the "collectors" that attempt to do it.

I don't ever plan on giving mine up and that is all I care about...me.

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: Rand
Also 80% receiver are not considered firearms.


They are once you turn it into one.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: Astro14
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
What good is having a serialized fully registered AR-15 when they come and take it from you ?

If you're the registered owner, they know where you live.


What on Earth is a fully registered gun?

I've never registered a gun.

Ever.

I fill out the 4473 when I buy it, but that's a record of sale. It has my address at the time of purchase.

Where do you live that guns have to be registered? Connecticut made certain guns illegal and required current owners to register them...but that's not true for most of the country,,.


If you legally purchase a new firearm from an official gun dealer, the serial number is associated with your name and SSN. At least that's my experience in the state I live in.

 

[AZjeff]

Originally Posted By: billt460
These "kitchen table specials", built on 80% lowers by people with zero machining experience, have as much desirability and resale value as a rusty Gremlin or Pacer. Think about it. Would you buy one?


If you were to buy a completed 80% lower from someone you and the seller would probably be committing a felony. Why would you want to do that? For personal use only.

 

[Bandito440]

Originally Posted By: Rand
Originally Posted By: Bandito440
Originally Posted By: ATF
Receivers that meet the definition of a “firearm” must have markings, including a serial number. See 27 CFR § 478.92 (Firearm manufacturers marking requirements).

This is right from the ATF's Q&A section on 80% receivers.

Whether you agree with it, or interpret the law differently, is certainly your choice. I don't spend my time worried about the government going door-to-door seizing guns, so this has no value to me. That's another couple thousand dollars that I can save for my lakeside retirement home.


so who said it is 1500$?

Ghost Gunner 2
$250.00
from Op's link

Also 80% receiver are not considered firearms.
from your link bandito440.
Therefore no serial number needed.
It also doesnt say a person needs to get a serial number
anywhere I looked.

$250 is the deposit. So, to answer your question, the manufacturer/seller said that it's $1,500. It's right on their website.

The 80% receiver is not considered a firearm, until you turn it into one. That's why you can buy it without the 4473; it's incomplete (80%). Once you do the work at home, it's a complete lower and would be considered a firearm.

If you're planning to go about this, some attention to detail may help you stay out of trouble.

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
If you legally purchase a new firearm from an official gun dealer, the serial number is associated with your name and SSN.


True. But only for as long as you choose to own it. Once you sell it the traceability back to you ends. Sure, they may turn up at your door looking. But there won't be any gun. And you are not required to provide them with information to it. This is what amounts to, "The Gun Show Loophole", all the liberals are always whining about. It has nothing to do with gun shows. They want a paper trail to follow.

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: AZjeff
If you were to buy a completed 80% lower from someone you and the seller would probably be committing a felony. Why would you want to do that? For personal use only.


That's just it. I wouldn't do it. I was just pointing out how worthless they are. You're basically building a weapon you can never get your money out of. At least not the lower. You give up the total value of the weapon by not being able to ever sell it. And for what? What if you have several of these and you die? Your unsuspecting wife or kids, who are not as familiar as you with guns, tries to sell them, end ends up on the receiving end of Federal gun charges. The whole thing is going the long way around the barn for nothing, except for the silly nonsense of entertaining the thought of keeping the government boogeyman away. That's a lot of money basically wasted to keep paranoia in check.

 

[punisher]

The information on the 4473 is retained by the FFL holder/dealer who sold the weapon/part. The 4473 is retained forever by the FFL holder. This information is accessible by the Fed pursuant to a criminal investigation, and by extension, whatever reason the Fed has to desire that information. When an FFL holder retires, those records are sent to, and kept by the Fed. Anyone who has filled out a 4473 has that 4473 stashed somewhere accessible by authorities.

"ATF may inspect individual Forms 4473 containing personally identifying information held by FFLs only for limited regulatory or law enforcement functions-specifically, during inspections, and in the course of investigations (for example, when tracing firearms linked to individual criminal investigations)."

As far as 80% receivers, unless you pay cash in a situation where nobody knows your name.............somebody with really big databases knows your name (like Cheers). Every 80% sold by an internet dealer has that part# associated with a name and CC#/Paypal info.

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: punisher
The 4473 is retained forever by the FFL holder.


20 years. Not "forever".

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=how+long+do+gun+dealers+hold+4473+forms

 

[Al]

In Pa. you are not required to provide your ssn on a handgun purpose but not doing so might mean you can't walk out immediately with the firearm.

 

[bubbatime]

Originally Posted By: punisher
As far as 80% receivers, unless you pay cash in a situation where nobody knows your name.............somebody with really big databases knows your name (like Cheers). Every 80% sold by an internet dealer has that part# associated with a name and CC#/Paypal info.


Part number? What part number? It's a chunk of metal with no serial numbers. It's no more traceable then a hammer or screwdriver bought at Home Depot.

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: Al
In Pa. you are not required to provide your ssn on a handgun purpose but not doing so might mean you can't walk out immediately with the firearm.


The Federal 4473 form shows the SSN# to be "optional". i.e. not required. It's the same form in all 50 states.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
If you legally purchase a new firearm from an official gun dealer, the serial number is associated with your name and SSN.


True. But only for as long as you choose to own it. Once you sell it the traceability back to you ends. Sure, they may turn up at your door looking. But there won't be any gun. And you are not required to provide them with information to it. This is what amounts to, "The Gun Show Loophole", all the liberals are always whining about. It has nothing to do with gun shows. They want a paper trail to follow.


Well, in my case if I ever sell anything I'd most likely transfer the firearm to the next guy ... then they would know I don't own it anymore. I just can't see selling firearms registered to me to someone else without 'de-registering' them from myself.

Actually, in my state the gun laws read that if a private sale takes place you are supposed to go to the a gun store and have the transfer paper work done and a background check done on the new buyer. I doubt hardly anyone even reads and abides by that law, let alone even knows about it.

 

[AZjeff]

From the ATF:Individuals manufacturing sporting-type firearms for their own use need not hold Federal Firearms Licenses (FFLs). However, we suggest that the manufacturer at least identify the firearm with a serial number as a safeguard in the event that the firearm is lost or stolen. Also, the firearm should be identified as required in 27 CFR 478.92 if it is sold or otherwise lawfully transferred in the future.

Source: http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/firearms-technology.html

As far as a serial number goes, a suggestion is not a lawful requirement.

 

[punisher]

Originally Posted By: bubbatime


Part number? What part number? It's a chunk of metal with no serial numbers. It's no more traceable then a hammer or screwdriver bought at Home Depot.


Part number/stock number doesn't equate to serial number. If some 3 letter agency wants to find out if I ordered any 80% lowers in the last few years, they will absolutely find out. If I used any traceable payment to a retailer, it is discoverable.

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Well, in my case if I ever sell anything I'd most likely transfer the firearm to the next guy ... then they would know I don't own it anymore.


And just how would you go about doing that? There are no "Transfer Forms", or "Certificate Of Title", like a motor vehicle which is licensed.

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: punisher
If some 3 letter agency wants to find out if I ordered any 80% lowers in the last few years, they will absolutely find out. If I used any traceable payment to a retailer, it is discoverable.


Absolutely. Today with so much electronic transferring of money from one party to the next, they can trace anything to anyone. The more we as a nation go "cashless", the more useless things like "80% lowers" become. There are just too many ways to find out what you've purchased and own besides using numbers stamped into the product.

Even if you walk into a store and pay cash for them. Chances are it will have a security camera recording the transaction. Along with a printed and recorded cash register receipt, with both the day and time you bought it.