Gripe over Gun Store Practices.

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: Panzerman
I can see if we went in there with MS 13 tattoos or Swastika T-shirts on.


Those are the guys the straw purchases are made for.

 

[bubbatime]

Originally Posted By: ArcticDriver
Originally Posted By: eljefino
Let's remember this is OP's POV.

His son has all these parts "except one" but magically and only according to OP this is going to wind up assembled as something of "his".


Yes, I was a bit skeptical of that claim as well...


First things first, the son is under 21. He can buy an assembled rifle legally, at age 18. He cannot buy a pistol from a FFL legally until he is 21. He also cannot buy a lower receiver legally until he is 21, since they can be used to build a pistol, or a rifle. His son can purchase a pistol legally in most states via a private party sale. Or his son can be gifted a pistol, legally in most states. So legally speaking, a person between 18-21 can legally own a pistol, they just cannot buy one through a FFL dealer.

Its very common to have a LOT of left over parts when you get into the AR platform rifle. People are constantly upgrading or changing parts. Numerous times I have looked in my spare parts stash and said, "oh look, I have a complete rifle here if I just had another $39 lower receiver." So off to the gun store to get a lower, and 2 hours later, I have another complete rifle.

There is nothing fishy about the OP wanting to purchases a lower so that he and his son can build another rifle from his sons spare parts. It doesn't matter if the rifle will be owned/retained by the OP, or owned by the son after it is built. As it is perfectly legal for the OP to retain the lower as his, or gift it to his son.

 

[ArcticDriver]

Originally Posted By: billt460
Another thing I haven't heard mentioned, is the extremely large problem that's been created recently by straw purchases. This is especially true in the southern border states. With all of the drug cartel activity, straw purchases have become a larger problem than ever before. The whole, "Fast And Furious" debacle was built on straw purchases. Firearms dealers want no part of being accused of this. For any reason. Today it means all but certain loss of an FFL, and criminal charges. We've had a Border Patrol Agent here in Arizona killed with an illegal gun bought through a straw purchase. Because of this the ATF is looking at dealers through a microscope.

This was not the case in the early 90's and before. Today it's one of the biggest problems dealers and the ATF are faced with. And it's most likely going to get a lot worse, before it gets any better. So yes, a lot of dealers are walking on pins and needles in regard to this problem. Be it real, or perceived. And many are gun shy, (no pun intended), as a direct result of it. Along with the pressures the ATF is placing on today's dealers. I personally know of 2 dealers in my area that I have dealt with, who have had to defend themselves in regards to these type of matters, when the ATF came a knocking. That is not a desirable position to be in.


Solid argument.

 

[Warstud]

Just like getting carded for alcohol and cigarette purchases when your obviously of age. Some employees do there job and some don't.

 

[ArcticDriver]

Originally Posted By: bubbatime

First things first, the son is under 21. He can buy an assembled rifle legally, at age 18. He cannot buy a pistol from a FFL legally until he is 21. He also cannot buy a lower receiver legally until he is 21, since they can be used to build a pistol, or a rifle. His son can purchase a pistol legally in most states via a private party sale. Or his son can be gifted a pistol, legally in most states. So legally speaking, a person between 18-21 can legally own a pistol, they just cannot buy one through a FFL dealer.

Its very common to have a LOT of left over parts when you get into the AR platform rifle. People are constantly upgrading or changing parts. Numerous times I have looked in my spare parts stash and said, "oh look, I have a complete rifle here if I just had another $39 lower receiver." So off to the gun store to get a lower, and 2 hours later, I have another complete rifle.

There is nothing fishy about the OP wanting to purchases a lower so that he and his son can build another rifle from his sons spare parts. It doesn't matter if the rifle will be owned/retained by the OP, or owned by the son after it is built. As it is perfectly legal for the OP to retain the lower as his, or gift it to his son.


This was NOT a private party sale.
This was not a gift ( atleast it was not described as such).
This eliminates those two arguments.

This part can be used to build a pistol or a rifle. The son is not of age to build a pistol according to the OP's description and the ATF regulations which the FFL is subject to. Regardless whether the assembled firearm is intended to be a rifle, it could equally be a pistol.

First you defend the reasons why the son should be allowed to own this firearm BUT the father said it was for himself so your point is immaterial to this thread. But lets explore it.

Why did the son not go to the gunshop alone and purchase this lower? Because he is not old enough.
(Maybe he did already go to this gunstore and attempted to buy the part...we don't know.)
So his father offers to go with him and make the purchase on behalf of his son.
The gun store FFL was not born yesterday and says he is not going to jeopardize his FFL.
The father has now lost face and should be embarassed for attempting to help his son bypass Federsl Firearm Laws but instead loses his temper and makes a scene.

The father was so worked up that he came on here and said as much.

Now lets look at this subjectively.

A 20-year old from Chicago's South Side has all the parts necessary to build himself a nice little AR pistol that can impress his fellow gang members and maybe kill a couple of schoolkids in the crossfire. Happens quite often. The 20-year-old is accompanied by a relative who is 21-years old or more who does not have a criminal record. He points out the part and says that is the only thing he is still missing.

The relstive then tells the gun store clerk the soon to be assembled firearm is actually going to be his even though he does not like ARs himself.

Are you going to argue on their behalf?

You are hoping your audience doesn't know the difference between plausable and reality.

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: Warstud
Just like getting carded for alcohol and cigarette purchases when your obviously of age. Some employees do there job and some don't.


True. Cabela's ALWAYS asks my birthday when I purchase ammunition...... And I'm 64. I look a bit younger, but not under 18!

 

[ArcticDriver]

I meant "objectively" in my post and not "subjectively".

 

[DuckRyder]

Originally Posted By: ArcticDriver
...
Are you going to argue on their behalf?

You are hoping your audience doesn't know the difference between plausable and reality.



Careful, he doesn’t like it when people know their rights, he might give you several citations and a full “complementary” vehicle inspection.

On the other hand, the purchase is either legal or not, my bet is that something was said or done that made the FFL think that the OP was not the actual purchaser. beyond what we are being told.

Or maybe the OP didn’t pull over for a funeral the FFL was in....

 

[AVB]

Originally Posted By: ArcticDriver


Why did the son not go to the gunshop alone and purchase this lower? Because he is not old enough.
(Maybe he did already go to this gunstore and attempted to buy the part...we don't know.)
So his father offers to go with him and make the purchase on behalf of his son.
The gun store FFL was not born yesterday and says he is not going to jeopardize his FFL.
The father has now lost face and should be embarassed for attempting to help his son bypass Federsl Firearm Laws but instead loses his temper and makes a scene.

The father was so worked up that he came on here and said as much.

Now lets look at this subjectively.

A 20-year old from Chicago's South Side has all the parts necessary to build himself a nice little AR pistol that can impress his fellow gang members and maybe kill a couple of schoolkids in the crossfire. Happens quite often. The 20-year-old is accompanied by a relative who is 21-years old or more who does not have a criminal record. He points out the part and says that is the only thing he is still missing.

The relstive then tells the gun store clerk the soon to be assembled firearm is actually going to be his even though he does not like ARs himself.

Are you going to argue on their behalf?

You are hoping your audience doesn't know the difference between plausable and reality.


That is still perfectly legal.

 

[Al]

Originally Posted By: bubbatime
gave them some concern, which is understandable. They will shut down ANY sales that they dont feel good about. They would rather lose a sale, then lose their license and thousands of sales.

Yea..I can't blame them. And the gun salesman could be civilly liable if the gun caused an injury.

 

[Al]

Originally Posted By: Astro14
Originally Posted By: ShotGun429
Originally Posted By: MinamiKotaro
I don't like ARs.
I agree, I really dont understand their purpose.


How is this germane?

Start your own anti-AR thread...

lol
I assume they believe an AR is an "Assault Rifle"..lol
Its an Armalite Rifle. ..around since the 50's/60's

 

[ArcticDriver]

Originally Posted By: DuckRyder
Originally Posted By: ArcticDriver
...
Are you going to argue on their behalf?

You are hoping your audience doesn't know the difference between plausable and reality.



Careful, he doesn’t like it when people know their rights, he might give you several citations and a full “complementary” vehicle inspection.

On the other hand, the purchase is either legal or not, my bet is that something was said or done that made the FFL think that the OP was not the actual purchaser. beyond what we are being told.

Or maybe the OP didn’t pull over for a funeral the FFL was in....


Robert,

Am I to understand from your post that Bubbatime is a professional LEO?

That would be interesting because as I read his post I thought any LEO would see through that slant in a heartbeat.

However, if Bubba is Law Enforcement and familiar with the Federsl & State firearm laws in FL then I defer to his first hand experience.

All I would ask Bubba is if the FLL was also acting within his"Rights"?

Thanks

 

[ArcticDriver]

bad quotes.

 

[ArcticDriver]

Quote function.

 

[Panzerman]

So some get it some dont. My point is if I would have said this lower isn't for me, it's for my son then I should have been able to buy it the same as the guy buying the pistol that's not for him but his wife. That was the issue.
I was Ok with you not wanting to sell me the part. Your gun store you make the rules etc.. Too many other places to buy so suit yourself. My "Gripe" didn't come till the manager turns around and does exactly what he told me he wasn't willing to do and that's sell a gun when the purchaser is in question may not be the purchaser then turning around and selling a pistol to a guy that clearly states this isn't going to be my pistol from the start. Double standard, I don't care how you look at it and reason to get bent out of shape and especially since we don't know if the wife is a felon, mentally capable to own a gun or even over 21.

 

[DuckRyder]

Originally Posted By: ArcticDriver
...
Robert,

Am I to understand from your post that Bubbatime is a professional LEO?

...


I think he is retired, I’m just poking a little fun at him and Panzerman for post they have made in the past. I’ll let Bubba answer the rest of the questions from his perspective.

I have held a ATF license and have a firearm manual and I will say that the FFL has a not only a right but a duty to deny the sale if he believes it is a straw purchase.

 

[Panzerman]

I didn't leave anything out in the story either except being honest in telling the guy I am really not into ARs so that's why my son is here. He started quizzing me on gas locks and AR questions that my son answered but I did not.
The two of us buy alot of guns. Probably over 10 in the last 6 months so it's really the gun stores loss that he is off the list for double standards in my book for a bigger sale.

 

[ArcticDriver]

Originally Posted By: Panzerman
So some get it some dont. My point is if I would have said this lower isn't for me, it's for my son then I should have been able to buy it the same as the guy buying the pistol that's not for him but his wife. That was the issue.
I was Ok with you not wanting to sell me the part. Your gun store you make the rules etc.. Too many other places to buy so suit yourself. My "Gripe" didn't come till the manager turns around and does exactly what he told me he wasn't willing to do and that's sell a gun when the purchaser is in question may not be the purchaser then turning around and selling a pistol to a guy that clearly states this isn't going to be my pistol from the start. Double standard, I don't care how you look at it and reason to get bent out of shape and especially since we don't know if the wife is a felon, mentally capable to own a gun or even over 21.


But the two examples are not identical. They are unique types of purchases and the guidelines for each are clearly spelled out in the law.

Originally Posted By: Panzerman
I didn't leave anything out in the story either except being honest in telling the guy I am really not into ARs so that's why my son is here. He started quizzing me on gas locks and AR questions that my son answered but I did not.
The two of us buy alot of guns. Probably over 10 in the last 6 months so it's really the gun stores loss that he is off the list for double standards in my book for a bigger sale.


As a consumer, you have every right to take your business elsewhere. Perhaps you can find an FFL holder who is OK with straw purchases if you show him enough money.

 

[ArcticDriver]

Originally Posted By: DuckRyder
Originally Posted By: ArcticDriver
...
Robert,

Am I to understand from your post that Bubbatime is a professional LEO?

...


I think he is retired, I’m just poking a little fun at him and Panzerman for post they have made in the past. I’ll let Bubba answer the rest of the questions from his perspective.

I have held a ATF license and have a firearm manual and I will say that the FFL has a not only a right but a duty to deny the sale if he believes it is a straw purchase.



Thanks Robert.

My interpretation was identical to your own.

 

[AMC]

Originally Posted By: Panzerman
So some get it some dont. My point is if I would have said this lower isn't for me, it's for my son then I should have been able to buy it the same as the guy buying the pistol that's not for him but his wife. That was the issue.
I was Ok with you not wanting to sell me the part. Your gun store you make the rules etc.. Too many other places to buy so suit yourself. My "Gripe" didn't come till the manager turns around and does exactly what he told me he wasn't willing to do and that's sell a gun when the purchaser is in question may not be the purchaser then turning around and selling a pistol to a guy that clearly states this isn't going to be my pistol from the start. Double standard, I don't care how you look at it and reason to get bent out of shape and especially since we don't know if the wife is a felon, mentally capable to own a gun or even over 21.


You learned a lesson today. Don't ever talk about ANY firearm purchase transferring to another person while in a gun store. Shop owners may get scared off and cancel your sale. Unfortunately, there are lots of time these days where being completely open and honest with people is simply not worth it. I am not saying everyone should lie and be deceitful but you and your son were way too honest and vocal at the gun shop.... Look what it got you.

As for letting the old guy buy a gun for his wife, I agree the gun shop should have denied him too; simply because he did it to you. That wasn't fair but I can take a few guesses as to why he was allowed to do it.

1. Gun shops, gun clubs and most gun related services always seem to cater and feel much more comfortable dealing with older folks. I think they assume older folks are more responsible. 2. The gun shop employees or owners may have had a relationship with the gentlemen that you did not have with them. That still counts for a lot these days. 3. The gun shop employees and/or owner is very careful with anything AR related. This is a very common trend again, why? Well, much like we have seen in other posts here, many people don't like AR's and get very emotional about them. The older gentlemen was talking about buying a revolver, one of the most innocent and least scary guns out there. The combination of your sale involving an AR and someone who was not actually 21 yet probably set off enough flags for him to get nervous and cancel your sale.

Count it as a lesson learned.