Garand OP rod spring?

[demarpaint]

I have a 1943 Winchester Garand and have a problem with it not ejecting the spent shell properly. It jams a live round up and over the chamber, with the bolt partially and tightly closed holding the live round pointing 45* up in the air. Getting a picture of what is happening w/o firing it is tough. Here's a picture of the operating spring I replaced yesterday. Length of the spring is supposed to be between 19" and 20 1/4", this is 20 1/8". Technically in spec, however note the slight bend in the spring, would that matter? At some point I will take it to the range and fire it again. I was hoping someone here has some idea of what might be going on. TIA.

 

[Astro14]

Springs are always at the top of my list when a Garand starts to malfunction. I’ve seen Garands run with that kind of bend in the spring, but I would replace that spring if it were my rifle. The Op Rod Spring also lifts the follower. Given the weird feed issue, the op rod spring would be a likely culprit.

Since your spring is technically in spec, remove the op rod spring, reinstall the rod, and the bolt. Hold the rifle 45° muzzle up. See if everything slides open as it should. Then hold it muzzle down and see if everything slides closed as it should.

If not, then you’ve got a mechanical hangup. Insufficient lubrication, perhaps.

I use grease on the rifle just like they did when it was new. I’ve had equally good results with the lubriplate 130 and Mobil 1. There are a lot of points that need grease. The underside of the barrel where the rod slides. The “ears“ of the bolt. The op rod track on the side of the receiver.

If it passes the “tilt test“ then mechanically it is OK. It sounds like the rifle might be short stroking. If your springs are good, then the likely cause for that is a worn gas cylinder or a worn gas piston on your op rod. Cross that bridge if you come to it. Columbus machine can re-work your op rod with a slightly oversized piston so that you get proper clearance. At this age, many gas cylinders are out of spec. Most rifles run fine with an out of spec gas cylinder.

So, in order: clean, grease, check via tilt test, replace the springs. This guy is great. A whole set of springs, including hammer springs and ejector, etc. are under $30. Do them all.

https://ammogarand.com/

If you’re still having an issue after all that, then, and only then, I would check the gas system.

 

[demarpaint]

Thanks for the info! It passed the slide test, I should have mentioned that. I put a new OP rod spring in anyway, they're cheap enough and hopefully that's it. I used Mobil 1 grease when I put it back together. I guess the only way to know is to fire it, but not in this heat, I'll have to wait. I'm not sure if this applies to the Garand or not but imo with over a 1" spread between 19" and 20 1/4" for a spring to pass muster, I wonder if the spring can be in spec size wise and still be weak?

 

[Astro14]

Thanks for the info! It passed the slide test, I should have mentioned that. I put a new OP rod spring in anyway, they're cheap enough and hopefully that's it. I used Mobil 1 grease when I put it back together. I guess the only way to know is to fire it, but not in this heat, I'll have to wait. I'm not sure if this applies to the Garand or not but imo with over a 1" spread between 19" and 20 1/4" for a spring to pass muster, I wonder if the spring can be in spec size wise and still be weak?

Absolutely. Op Rod Spring is the first thing I replace on any Garand I’ve bought.

While the rifle isn’t picky about ammo, I am. I run Federal American Eagle 150 grain (marketed for the M1) or S&B or PPU ammo specifically designed for the M1. The rifle will run with heavier/hotter ammo, but you’re slamming the bolt into the back of the receiver harder than was intended, and eventually, you will pay a price for that.

You won’t “bend the op rod” with hot ammo, it’s already slightly bent when it is in spec, but it’s the heel of the receiver that is at risk, particularly with a weak spring with hot ammo.

We had a whole BITOG thread on this a while back, and I disagreed with the points that one poster was making about the rifle running ammo hotter than M2 ball. It may be able to handle it, but I would prefer not to push my 80+ year old rifles, in the same way that I don’t red-line the Packard when I drive it.

These guys would know…

https://thecmp.org/sales-and-service/m1-Garand/

 

[demarpaint]

I use only ball ammo FMJ. I hand load but not .30-06 since the only rifles I have in .30-06 are my Garands. I will check out the ammo you mentioned, from what I've heard running hot ammo in it is not a good idea, especially long term.

 

[Sequoiasoon]

@demarpaint - I think you are in Nassau IIRC. If you don't get it figured out.

Middle Island NY - Orion 7 Enterprises my son had him do a bunch to his Garand. Need to call to make an appointment though if doing walk in type stuff.

 

[demarpaint]

Springs are always at the top of my list when a Garand starts to malfunction. I’ve seen Garands run with that kind of bend in the spring, but I would replace that spring if it were my rifle. The Op Rod Spring also lifts the follower. Given the weird feed issue, the op rod spring would be a likely culprit.

Since your spring is technically in spec, remove the op rod spring, reinstall the rod, and the bolt. Hold the rifle 45° muzzle up. See if everything slides open as it should. Then hold it muzzle down and see if everything slides closed as it should.

If not, then you’ve got a mechanical hangup. Insufficient lubrication, perhaps.

I use grease on the rifle just like they did when it was new. I’ve had equally good results with the lubriplate 130 and Mobil 1. There are a lot of points that need grease. The underside of the barrel where the rod slides. The “ears“ of the bolt. The op rod track on the side of the receiver.

If it passes the “tilt test“ then mechanically it is OK. It sounds like the rifle might be short stroking. If your springs are good, then the likely cause for that is a worn gas cylinder or a worn gas piston on your op rod. Cross that bridge if you come to it. Columbus machine can re-work your op rod with a slightly oversized piston so that you get proper clearance. At this age, many gas cylinders are out of spec. Most rifles run fine with an out of spec gas cylinder.

So, in order: clean, grease, check via tilt test, replace the springs. This guy is great. A whole set of springs, including hammer springs and ejector, etc. are under $30. Do them all.

https://ammogarand.com/

If you’re still having an issue after all that, then, and only then, I would check the gas system.

@demarpaint - I think you are in Nassau IIRC. If you don't get it figured out.

Middle Island NY - Orion 7 Enterprises my son had him do a bunch to his Garand. Need to call to make an appointment though if doing walk in type stuff.

Yes, thanks. I bought the spring from them. I'll test fire it at some point before reaching out to them.

 

[demarpaint]

This is a picture of how it jams. Please note in actual use there would be a fully loaded En-bloc clip. Load clip, close bolt fire the first round, it fires and ejects. The second round rides up like this picture with the bolt closing and locking the rim of the round below it. Open the bolt, remove the round close the bolt and fire round three, [round two was removed by opening the bolt which had it jammed and the round is in my pocket] it fires round three, and jams the same way on round four, etc. I was not able to close the bolt to simulate, so I described the issue instead.

FTR the Superlube in the picture was for rebuilding a Snap On ratchet.

 

[Hohn]

I use only ball ammo FMJ. I hand load but not .30-06 since the only rifles I have in .30-06 are my Garands. I will check out the ammo you mentioned, from what I've heard running hot ammo in it is not a good idea, especially long term.

It's worth mentioning that original 30-06 performance in the Garand was essentially identical to a modern .308. So if anyone is loading 30-06 to performance levels higher than what .308 would deliver with the same bullet weight, they are almost certainly outside the design parameter for the Garand, which was designed around 150gr at 2700fps from the 24" barrel. This is actually milder than what many .308 loads and rifles will shoot today-- it's barely over 2400 lb-ft of energy.

Full power 30-06 today can be over 3000 lb-ft of muzzle energy.

Forget about bending op-rods. I'd be more concerned with destroying the action with excessive bolt thrust.

I don't own a garand (for shame), but if I did, would absolutely handload-only to ensure it was getting mild loads. I suspect that a mild load of 4064 is essential for the Garand to run with peak reliability.

 

[demarpaint]

It's worth mentioning that original 30-06 performance in the Garand was essentially identical to a modern .308. So if anyone is loading 30-06 to performance levels higher than what .308 would deliver with the same bullet weight, they are almost certainly outside the design parameter for the Garand, which was designed around 150gr at 2700fps from the 24" barrel. This is actually milder than what many .308 loads and rifles will shoot today-- it's barely over 2400 lb-ft of energy.

Full power 30-06 today can be over 3000 lb-ft of muzzle energy.

Forget about bending op-rods. I'd be more concerned with destroying the action with excessive bolt thrust.

I don't own a garand (for shame), but if I did, would absolutely handload-only to ensure it was getting mild loads. I suspect that a mild load of 4064 is essential for the Garand to run with peak reliability.

I don't have the dies for .30-06 but plenty of Greek ball ammo. IIRC if you buy a Garand from Orion 7 they will void their warranty if you shoot hand loaded ammo.

 

[oldcodger]

First thing I would do is try some other ammo.

 

[demarpaint]

First thing I would do is try some other ammo.

That was one of the first things I tried early on. I traded a friend of mine for some of his ammo. I had the same problem.

 

[football]

I don’t know why it’s malfunctioning.

Fun fact- the CMP is building BRAND NEW M1 Garand rifles for the first time ever. Interesting.

 

[demarpaint]

Fun fact- the CMP is building BRAND NEW M1 Garand rifles for the first time ever. Interesting.

Yes, they probably shoot well. No real historic value though.

 

[jeremy2171]

It's worth mentioning that original 30-06 performance in the Garand was essentially identical to a modern .308. So if anyone is loading 30-06 to performance levels higher than what .308 would deliver with the same bullet weight, they are almost certainly outside the design parameter for the Garand, which was designed around 150gr at 2700fps from the 24" barrel. This is actually milder than what many .308 loads and rifles will shoot today-- it's barely over 2400 lb-ft of energy.

Full power 30-06 today can be over 3000 lb-ft of muzzle energy.

Forget about bending op-rods. I'd be more concerned with destroying the action with excessive bolt thrust.

I don't own a garand (for shame), but if I did, would absolutely handload-only to ensure it was getting mild loads. I suspect that a mild load of 4064 is essential for the Garand to run with peak reliability.

Lots of misinformation here.

The garand was designed around Ball, M1. 174 GR at 2700+fps MV.

Commercial ammo and milsurp ammunition operates at the same pressures.

PPU/s&b garand ammo is pretty hot compared to most milsurp ammo.


To the OP.

Is this doing it with the same clip? Or several different ones?

What ammo did you use?

 

[demarpaint]

To the OP.

Is this doing it with the same clip? Or several different ones?

What ammo did you use?

Many different clips. I'm using Greek Ball, M1 174 GR ammo FMJ from the CMP. I also swapped ammo with a friend, also ammo specifically for the Garand, it was not Greek ammo, not sure where it was from.

 

[jeremy2171]

Many different clips. I'm using Greek Ball, M1 174 GR ammo FMJ from the CMP. I also swapped ammo with a friend, also ammo specifically for the Garand, it was not Greek ammo, not sure where it was from.

Now that I can see your pic on the big pc.


The follower is installed backwards.

 

[demarpaint]

Now that I can see your pic on the big pc.


The follower is installed backwards.

That's something I never removed. I must have got the gun that way, thanks! I will look into that.

 

[Astro14]

Now that I can see your pic on the big pc.


The follower is installed backwards.

Sharp eye!

I agree - when we learned to disassemble our Garands, under the tutelage of Staff Sergeat Hancock, USMC, the “Klingon Warship” will fit both ways, but only works one way.

http://www.civilianmarksmanship.com/assemblyhtml/reassemblefeed6.html

 

[Astro14]

That's something I never removed. I must have got the gun that way, thanks! I will look into that.

But you got it from the CMP, didn’t you? Shocking that it came that way…