Frame replacement

[ls1mike]

I'm curious about what they do in a frame swap. Do they find a complete used frame with all lines, wiring, brakes, and suspension, and then drop your engine, trans, and body onto it? Or would they take the time to swap better parts from your truck or replace worn parts with new?

No idea, but it has to be new according to insurance and the body shop. Truck only has 47,000 miles on it.

 

[ls1mike]

Electrical gremlins are the usual reason for us to send something back to be fixed after major bodywork. Something loose, not attached, damaged connector, etc... For us, we aren't super focused on the quality of the paintwork - they are tools to accomplish a job. We don't accept garbage, but our standard there is lower than a personal truck... Our crews (well some of them anyways) appreciate having nicer equipment to do their work...

I mean all that aside, they are fleet trucks. No one really owns them or puts time and love into them. I spent my own money on this truck and looked for 3 years to find this exact truck. So I will be super focused on all of it. I wanted to get a good 15 years out it.

 

[MNgopher]

Totally get it. Functionally, we get all the things we need to do our jobs - like tow safely - etc functioning correctly. Cosmetics are down the list for fleet use, but functionality is not. A bunch of alarms, warnings, cautions are not acceptable for our use.

Ultimately, thats what you will have to decide is if its acceptable to you. Nobody else can make that choice for you.

 

[mattd]

IMO, this completely depends on the ability of the body shop. They could get the job done and you’d never know it was in an accident or had that level of repair, or it could be a headache for the remainder of your ownership. If they do the job well with all quality OEM parts, there’s no reason it can’t be what it was. JMO.

 

[Nick1994]

The part I’m not understanding is why the frame needs to be replaced. Being bent doesn’t really matter unless it’s rippled all the way through. You can straighten bent frames easily. My dad would cut off frame rails and weld in new sections.

 

[drtyler]

The part I’m not understanding is why the frame needs to be replaced. Being bent doesn’t really matter unless it’s rippled all the way through. You can straighten bent frames easily. My dad would cut off frame rails and weld in new sections.

My guess would be they know the game and will get more $$ overall for frame replacement. In defense of their position, they might cite liability as a reason to not straighten the bent area.

 

[ls1mike]

The part I’m not understanding is why the frame needs to be replaced. Being bent doesn’t really matter unless it’s rippled all the way through. You can straighten bent frames easily. My dad would cut off frame rails and weld in new sections.

They say it is in the pocket of the front shock mount.

 

[PimTac]

The part I’m not understanding is why the frame needs to be replaced. Being bent doesn’t really matter unless it’s rippled all the way through. You can straighten bent frames easily. My dad would cut off frame rails and weld in new sections.

I’m sure that back in the day when there were frame and alignment shops everywhere those guys could do it. It may be one of those lost arts.

I agree with drtyler above. The shop know that insurance will cover it so they are playing the game of padding the estimate.

 

[andrew_j]

Well there are hundreds of thousands of Toyota trucks with successful frame swaps out on the road doing truck stuff...

The cosmetics would bother me more than the mechanicals.

Don't forget to get money for diminished value.

The Toyota frame change process was designed by engineers and plain incredible and had dedicated mechanics and kits. My parents had it done and not a single rattle when they sold their 2000 Tundra last year which had frame swap in 2011.

This truck is dependent on body shop. At least they are not attempting to bend it back which looks barbaric and doomed for chewed up tires.

 

[Nick1994]

I’m sure that back in the day when there were frame and alignment shops everywhere those guys could do it. It may be one of those lost arts.

I agree with drtyler above. The shop know that insurance will cover it so they are playing the game of padding the estimate.

Might be more of a parts changer thing now. My dad retired in 2020

 

[D60]

If the frame is truly damaged who can really blame the shop? If you straighten or cut & weld, you own it. A year later the owner shows up and says "my right front tire is just barely feathering the inner edge. I'm sure the repair must be to blame."

I'm NOT saying OP would do this, merely that the shop has to consider CYA

 

[dogememe]

A new frame sounds like a way better outcome than trying to repair the old one.

 

[Chris142]

When I was 17 I did a frame swap on my pickup. It's was not that big of a deal. All the major stuff like rear axle and springs, engine and transmission etc come off as 1 piece. I did it in 3 days with no power tools.

 

[Chris142]

The part I’m not understanding is why the frame needs to be replaced. Being bent doesn’t really matter unless it’s rippled all the way through. You can straighten bent frames easily. My dad would cut off frame rails and weld in new sections.

And often a straightened frame is straighter that a factory frame.

 

[Owen Lucas]

Auto insurance adjuster here.

Is there any chance that the body shop could find more damage, pushing the claim higher?

Absolutely, these are called supplements. There will be odd things that break, cannot be reused and new damage discovered along with part price adjustments. Expect at least 3 supplements on a frame job. Probably not enough to total the vehicle unless the engine block was cracked.

I am going to demand a complete respray, no reason to paint just the cab and then blend in the paint on the bed

I agree painting the entire bed is the way to go especially since they will be clear coating the entire thing anyway. It might be a fight to get it approved though since there is a lot of surface area to have a successful blend. If they refuse I would still pay out of pocket for it. Probably 6 additional paint hours, depending on the paint and labor rate in your area it could be an additional $300 - $500.

I want an itemized list of every fastener and rubber frame component replaced.

The estimate should have everything on it but a lot of the tiny rivets and odd things like fuel rail clips are not usually in the estimating database. This is what I hated about frame replacement because you had to manually enter 2 dozen parts to have an accurate estimate. Ask for the parts invoices for your records.

I certainly won't feel comfortable towing with it.

If the frame is new from the factory, then you shouldn't have an issue. What I would be worried about is the few comebacks you will most likely have for a noise here or something there. Your truck is essentially being built from the ground up. Par for the course especially for us mechanically inclined BITOGS. Set the expectation with the shop you are a perfectionist.

As far as diminished value, USAA sent me the paperwork and I have already returned it. They mentioned it before I did.

They did this to avoid a massive payout by a professional appraiser. USAA most likely will use a percent based calculator that will result a fraction of what a pro will determine.

You do not have to accept their offer. I am surprised USAA is allowing a first party DV claim, are they filing this through your uninsured motorist coverage?

See what their offer is and let me know. DV on this vehicle should be minimum $4k (being very conservative) and possibly much higher. It is best to wait until AFTER the repairs are completed to have the final estimate amount and know the full extend of damage.

I can write up a diminished value report for you for free, BITOG discount.

Is USAA writing for a new frame or a used one?

 

[Owen Lucas]

The part I’m not understanding is why the frame needs to be replaced. Being bent doesn’t really matter unless it’s rippled all the way through. You can straighten bent frames easily. My dad would cut off frame rails and weld in new sections.

Back in the day everything was repairable and today it still is if you are not following ASE or manufacturer standards. We've all heard of the guy at the shop that can align any vehicle, but he used a bowl torch and a hammer instead of replacing parts the correct way. The collision repair industry has a come a long way with regulations, some unfortunately due to law suits.

When it comes to classic cars and older vehicles without parts availability, well those rules go out the window, and you have to use an experienced tech like your father.

I-CAR, ASE, and many manufacturers don't allow you to repair folded over metal or severely bent rails. There are temperature limits as well often measured with heat sensitive crayons. It's been a long time since I've seen anyone doing repairs like that. Easier to replace than to have the liability of a frame cracking.

"The following are just a few examples of recommendations found in vehicle-specific BRMs:

• According to the GM service site, for ultra-high-strength steel (UHSS), dual phase steel, and ultra-high-strength dual phase steel, "The use of heat to repair damage is not recommended for this type of steel."
• For mild steel and high-strength low alloy (HSLA) steel, GM specifies that, "Controlled use of heat can be used to repair damage, if the heat does not exceed 650°C (1200°F). The heat should be applied a maximum of 2 times, for up to 90 seconds."

- Recommended GM Steel Repairability Matrix.

Straightening And Heat: General Motors

I-CAR REPAIRABILITY TECHNICAL SUPPORT PORTAL

rts.i-car.com

I assume that the entire ladder frame is no longer straight and in more of a trapezoid shape. Imagine trying to align the suspension on that.

Sure you can pull one side very hard but then will the cross sections, rivets, and frame be loose? If the frame was off a cm on one side that is technically repairable by some standards and you can get away with it but I wouldn't want that on my vehicle. This frame most likely had the trifecta of frame replacement damage, mashed rail end (requiring a new frame horn) swayed rails (towards driver side), and trapezoid frame (where the rear bumper is no longer parallel with the tailgate).

I would make sure 100% that a new frame is coming from the factory and not a LKQ one because, who knows what happened to the LKQ vehicle? A used frame would have to be remeasured to make sure it is true.

 

[Nick1994]

Back in the day everything was repairable and today it still is if you are not following ASE or manufacturer standards. We've all heard of the guy at the shop that can align any vehicle, but he used a bowl torch and a hammer instead of replacing parts the correct way. The collision repair industry has a come a long way with regulations, some unfortunately due to law suits.

When it comes to classic cars and older vehicles without parts availability, well those rules go out the window, and you have to use an experienced tech like your father.

I-CAR, ASE, and many manufacturers don't allow you to repair folded over metal or severely bent rails. There are temperature limits as well often measured with heat sensitive crayons. It's been a long time since I've seen anyone doing repairs like that. Easier to replace than to have the liability of a frame cracking.

"The following are just a few examples of recommendations found in vehicle-specific BRMs:

• According to the GM service site, for ultra-high-strength steel (UHSS), dual phase steel, and ultra-high-strength dual phase steel, "The use of heat to repair damage is not recommended for this type of steel."
• For mild steel and high-strength low alloy (HSLA) steel, GM specifies that, "Controlled use of heat can be used to repair damage, if the heat does not exceed 650°C (1200°F). The heat should be applied a maximum of 2 times, for up to 90 seconds."

- Recommended GM Steel Repairability Matrix.

Straightening And Heat: General Motors

I-CAR REPAIRABILITY TECHNICAL SUPPORT PORTAL

rts.i-car.com

I assume that the entire ladder frame is no longer straight and in more of a trapezoid shape. Imagine trying to align the suspension on that.

Sure you can pull one side very hard but then will the cross sections, rivets, and frame be loose? If the frame was off a cm on one side that is technically repairable by some standards and you can get away with it but I wouldn't want that on my vehicle. This frame most likely had the trifecta of frame replacement damage, mashed rail end (requiring a new frame horn) swayed rails (towards driver side), and trapezoid frame (where the rear bumper is no longer parallel with the tailgate).

I would make sure 100% that a new frame is coming from the factory and not a LKQ one because, who knows what happened to the LKQ vehicle? A used frame would have to be remeasured to make sure it is true.

He’s I-Car Platinum Certified too.

You’re right though, there’s probably more places it’s bent than what hasn’t been revealed here. The insurance company isn’t going to want to pay for something they don’t need to.

 

[ls1mike]

Auto insurance adjuster here.


Absolutely, these are called supplements. There will be odd things that break, cannot be reused and new damage discovered along with part price adjustments. Expect at least 3 supplements on a frame job. Probably not enough to total the vehicle unless the engine block was cracked.


I agree painting the entire bed is the way to go especially since they will be clear coating the entire thing anyway. It might be a fight to get it approved though since there is a lot of surface area to have a successful blend. If they refuse I would still pay out of pocket for it. Probably 6 additional paint hours, depending on the paint and labor rate in your area it could be an additional $300 - $500.


The estimate should have everything on it but a lot of the tiny rivets and odd things like fuel rail clips are not usually in the estimating database. This is what I hated about frame replacement because you had to manually enter 2 dozen parts to have an accurate estimate. Ask for the parts invoices for your records.


If the frame is new from the factory, then you shouldn't have an issue. What I would be worried about is the few comebacks you will most likely have for a noise here or something there. Your truck is essentially being built from the ground up. Par for the course especially for us mechanically inclined BITOGS. Set the expectation with the shop you are a perfectionist.


They did this to avoid a massive payout by a professional appraiser. USAA most likely will use a percent based calculator that will result a fraction of what a pro will determine.

You do not have to accept their offer. I am surprised USAA is allowing a first party DV claim, are they filing this through your uninsured motorist coverage?

See what their offer is and let me know. DV on this vehicle should be minimum $4k (being very conservative) and possibly much higher. It is best to wait until AFTER the repairs are completed to have the final estimate amount and know the full extend of damage.

I can write up a diminished value report for you for free, BITOG discount.

Is USAA writing for a new frame or a used one?

Dude, you are the man. They are filing through uninsured motorist. I have a 100-dollar deductible. I hope they move it to a closer shop so I can check in on it. That is the plan right now. If this shop wants to a frame swap, I am going provide all new motor mounts, tranny mounts, body mounts, body fasteners and u-blots for the rearend. I don't want that stuff reused.
Body shop says USAA will only use a new GM frame.

 

[RhondaHonda]

One thing to keep in mind if you want to push for a total loss is that the ACV less the salvage value of the record truck might be less than the repair cost. That thing is still probably worth $12-$20k in salvage as it sits.

Follow up with the adjuster and explain that they should total it in the name of customer service since you’ll be without a truck for 3+ months and the repairs are probably more than the total loss payout once USAA sells the salvage.

 

[Owen Lucas]

Dude, you are the man. They are filing through uninsured motorist. I have a 100-dollar deductible. I hope they move it to a closer shop so I can check in on it. That is the plan right now. If this shop wants to a frame swap, I am going provide all new motor mounts, tranny mounts, body mounts, body fasteners and u-blots for the rearend. I don't want that stuff reused.
Body shop says USAA will only use a new GM frame.

See if the shop can supplement for new mounts and hardware which they can find damaged during disassembly, but I see your point paying out of pocket.

Good to hear about a new frame. There are so many variations between models that sometimes it's hard to find the exact one needed.