Fram vs Advanced Auto Parts

Messages
79
Location
over yonder
Originally Posted by Farnsworth
I never said I know what the flow velocity change did. Fram shows the swirling and even structure in the swirl. I didn't draw it. Don't need to study up on fluid dynamics here, just need a garden hose and a thumb to study. Based on the garden hose analogy, I learned the tear drop holes do induce changes. Learning and having an open mind are not bad things.
Putting a thumb over the garden hose changes the back pressure and exit velocity of the water across the entire cross section surface area equally. If the garden hose opening is reduced, the shape of the reduced opening does not effect the exit pressure/velocity as long as the cross sectional surface area of the opening is the same (this is not to be confused with spray patterns). Likewise, the tear drop shape of an oil filter opening will have equal back pressure and exit velocity across the entire opening. Regarding the swirl effects, I highly doubt the marketing team cares to accurately portray the science. The oil is going to enter the filter perpendicular to the angle of the inlet holes, regardless of the shape. If any of this actually mattered to a measurable degree, every oil filter manufacturer would have converged onto the same design decades ago.
 

ZeeOSix

Thread starter
Messages
27,159
Location
PNW
Originally Posted by shibby6600
Originally Posted by Farnsworth
I never said I know what the flow velocity change did. Fram shows the swirling and even structure in the swirl. I didn't draw it. Don't need to study up on fluid dynamics here, just need a garden hose and a thumb to study. Based on the garden hose analogy, I learned the tear drop holes do induce changes. Learning and having an open mind are not bad things.
Putting a thumb over the garden hose changes the back pressure and exit velocity of the water across the entire cross section surface area equally. If the garden hose opening is reduced, the shape of the reduced opening does not effect the exit pressure/velocity as long as the cross sectional surface area of the opening is the same (this is not to be confused with spray patterns). Likewise, the tear drop shape of an oil filter opening will have equal back pressure and exit velocity across the entire opening. Regarding the swirl effects, I highly doubt the marketing team cares to accurately portray the science. The oil is going to enter the filter perpendicular to the angle of the inlet holes, regardless of the shape. If any of this actually mattered to a measurable degree, every oil filter manufacturer would have converged onto the same design decades ago.
Yeah, the thumb over the hose end analogy isn't even close to what some think is happening. Fact is, those new base plate holes have a larger flow area, not a smaller area like when a thumb is put over the end of a hose. What would be a more accurate analogy would be to make the hose with a larger tear drop shaped fitting on the end. Or better yet, a pressurized vessel with round holes and also larger tear drop shapped holes in the same wall. The velocity is going to slow down some with larger holes because of the increased exit area, and the flow steam will still come out in a straight velocity vector. It's not going to come out in some kind of "swirling" stream like a mini tornado, or come out and make some kind of arc (except for a gravity arc downward in this case) in the air because of the tear drop shaped exit hole.
 
Messages
1,788
Location
USA
Settle down boys. The garden hose analogy is perfect. Ya move your thumb to make the hole small and the water sprays harder and farther. More examples from around the home are your shower head, and kitchen sink sprayer if you have one. An easy one to see out in the garage is your pressure washer nozzles. Mine has several and goes from low pressure to high. Moving out to the street we find the fire hydrant, Notice when the fireman comes to put out a fire he puts a hose with a nozzle on it. Science is science, the tear drop narrow end will have a higher psi across the base plate thickness and exit at a higher velocity than the wide end. Pressure behind the holes has nothing to do with it, it's all relative. There would be a gradient of pressure and the narrow end oil molecules will "power" or pull on the wide end slower moving molecules due to friction between heavy molecules. As to what the shape of the exit oil flow is, I leave that to Fram on their box as they invented the idea. Try to be nice boys, this is how one non expert person sees it, be nice to people and don't fight.
 
Messages
17,000
Location
Upper Midwest
Originally Posted by Farnsworth
Settle down boys. The garden hose analogy is perfect. Ya move your thumb to make the hole small and the water sprays harder and farther. More examples from around the home are your shower head, and kitchen sink sprayer if you have one. An easy one to see out in the garage is your pressure washer nozzles. Mine has several and goes from low pressure to high. Moving out to the street we find the fire hydrant, Notice when the fireman comes to put out a fire he puts a hose with a nozzle on it. Science is science, the tear drop narrow end will have a higher psi across the base plate thickness and exit at a higher velocity than the wide end. Pressure behind the holes has nothing to do with it, it's all relative. There would be a gradient of pressure and the narrow end oil molecules will "power" or pull on the wide end slower moving molecules due to friction between heavy molecules. As to what the shape of the exit oil flow is, I leave that to Fram on their box as they invented the idea. Try to be nice boys, this is how one non expert person sees it, be nice to people and don't fight.
That post is really something.
 
Last edited:

ZeeOSix

Thread starter
Messages
27,159
Location
PNW
^^^ It's always good to start the day off with a good laugh. "Flat Earth" meet filter with "thumb over nozzel" holes. laugh wink
 
Messages
79
Location
over yonder
Originally Posted by Farnsworth
Learning and having an open mind are not bad things ... this is how one non expert person sees it, be nice to people and don't fight.
I'm legitimately trying to help you understand the flaws in your thinking. I don't have ill intent or want to make this a heated argument, but, as you said, a learning experience. ZeeOSix may have been a little on the flippant side, but reading up on fluid dynamics would have answered your questions and help you see the flaws in your thinking. One major principle of fluid dynamics is fluids push in all directions equally (paraphrased). Similarly, fluids move through openings with equal pressure across the entirety of the opening. A thumb over a garden hose, or a nozzle on a fire hose, nozzle on a faucet, etc. are perfect examples where changing the exit shape/size did not change the fact that all fluid leaving the hose is leaving at the same velocity with the given shape. On an open hose, all of the water leaves at the same velocity and pressure across the entire hose opening. Put a thumb over the hose, all of the water still leaves at the same velocity across the entire opening despite the velocity being higher than an open hose. Observing an open hose velocity to a partially closed hose velocity and then applying the two different observations to a third opening with a small and wide side is an incorrect comparison. They are separate systems that cannot be compared in this manner. Another way to think of this, if the garden hose had a triangular opening instead of a circle, but kept the same surface area as the circle, the water would exit at the same velocity. The corners do not get an increase in velocity relative to the center simply because they are tighter spaces. Counter argument using your methodology. A thumb over a hose does not make the hose exit a perfect circle, but instead something like a half moon. The velocity/pressure at the corners of this half moon should be higher than the center of the half moon where there is more area, but truth is the velocity is the same on the entire opening.
 

ZeeOSix

Thread starter
Messages
27,159
Location
PNW
I stopped trying to talk the principles of fluid dynamics (like you did here), because just like with a Flat Earther, no matter what you say technically, it will go in one ear and out the other because misconceptions are hard to change. So humor seems like a better way to go. grin2
 
Messages
17,000
Location
Upper Midwest
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
I stopped trying to talk the principles of fluid dynamics (like you did here), because just like with a Flat Earther, no matter what you say technically, it will go in one ear and out the other because misconceptions are hard to change. So humor seems like a better way to go. grin2
I would say that just as it was in the past, there's an agenda here other than technical understanding.
 
Messages
1,788
Location
USA
Originally Posted by shibby6600
Originally Posted by Farnsworth
Learning and having an open mind are not bad things ... this is how one non expert person sees it, be nice to people and don't fight.
I'm legitimately trying to help you understand the flaws in your thinking. I don't have ill intent or want to make this a heated argument, but, as you said, a learning experience. ZeeOSix may have been a little on the flippant side, but reading up on fluid dynamics would have answered your questions and help you see the flaws in your thinking. One major principle of fluid dynamics is fluids push in all directions equally (paraphrased). Similarly, fluids move through openings with equal pressure across the entirety of the opening. A thumb over a garden hose, or a nozzle on a fire hose, nozzle on a faucet, etc. are perfect examples where changing the exit shape/size did not change the fact that all fluid leaving the hose is leaving at the same velocity with the given shape. On an open hose, all of the water leaves at the same velocity and pressure across the entire hose opening. Put a thumb over the hose, all of the water still leaves at the same velocity across the entire opening despite the velocity being higher than an open hose. Observing an open hose velocity to a partially closed hose velocity and then applying the two different observations to a third opening with a small and wide side is an incorrect comparison. They are separate systems that cannot be compared in this manner. Another way to think of this, if the garden hose had a triangular opening instead of a circle, but kept the same surface area as the circle, the water would exit at the same velocity. The corners do not get an increase in velocity relative to the center simply because they are tighter spaces. Counter argument using your methodology. A thumb over a hose does not make the hose exit a perfect circle, but instead something like a half moon. The velocity/pressure at the corners of this half moon should be higher than the center of the half moon where there is more area, but truth is the velocity is the same on the entire opening.
The pressure washer example may be the best. With the finest nozzle it can eat concrete on mine. They make machines that cut steel with water. The velocity absolutely increases with smaller nozzles. It's not really even an argument on that. They even make shower heads with varying size holes to get spray patterns people might enjoy. An oil filter being directly after the oil pump is an easy situation. Eight small inlet holes will have higher pressure through them to maintain the same flow compared to eight larger holes. The small end of the tear drop acts as a smaller hole, gradually increasing to the larger side. So you are saying under flow the pressure within a cell is everywhere the same no matter the shape. I have known that for 50 years but am hung up on why they say it produces action at the hole exit. So if you overlap two holes side by side, slightly, one small and one large the velocity output is the same, but if holes are walled apart they output velocity is different? Good you commented on the subject. Discussions are not supposed to be tear downs to "win" by bullying or word tricks, but rather up lift, or at least be neutral. I have no use for people who don't up lift others. It's a very poor class if a teacher doesn't value each pupil as they are and with respect. We all are as we are, and that is fine. It's a big new problem where people can quickly look up info on the internet to appear "smart " to "win." I don't approach discussions that way. Cheers2
 
Messages
3,173
Location
Western S.C.
A1×V2 = A2×V2 =Q Actually velocity is not exactly the same across the nozzle exit area, but it's close enough for this low-level discussion.
 
Last edited:

ZeeOSix

Thread starter
Messages
27,159
Location
PNW
It's a worthless discussion when someone who doesn't understand what's really going in the subject matter won't do some self learning before getting into these type of technical discussions. Oh well, many people with locked on misconceptions who won't listen and learn are gonna only see and believe what they "think" is right, regardless of the factual engineering and science behind reality. Oh well, as they say: "It is what it is". grin2
 
Messages
17,000
Location
Upper Midwest
Originally Posted by Farnsworth
The pressure washer example may be the best. With the finest nozzle it can eat concrete on mine. They make machines that cut steel with water. The velocity absolutely increases with smaller nozzles. It's not really even an argument on that. They even make shower heads with varying size holes to get spray patterns people might enjoy. An oil filter being directly after the oil pump is an easy situation. Eight small inlet holes will have higher pressure through them to maintain the same flow compared to eight larger holes. The small end of the tear drop acts as a smaller hole, gradually increasing to the larger side. So you are saying under flow the pressure within a cell is everywhere the same no matter the shape. I have known that for 50 years but am hung up on why they say it produces action at the hole exit. So if you overlap two holes side by side, slightly, one small and one large the velocity output is the same, but if holes are walled apart they output velocity is different? Good you commented on the subject. Discussions are not supposed to be tear downs to "win" by bullying or word tricks, but rather up lift, or at least be neutral. I have no use for people who don't up lift others. It's a very poor class if a teacher doesn't value each pupil as they are and with respect. We all are as we are, and that is fine. It's a big new problem where people can quickly look up info on the internet to appear "smart " to "win." I don't approach discussions that way. Cheers2
This is perhaps one of the most nonsensical posts I've seen on Bitog, and that's saying a lot. We've had some doozies in the past but you've done well. So if the exit hole for the fluid is small enough you can cut steel regardless of the pressure in the pipe?
 
Messages
1,788
Location
USA
Originally Posted by kschachn
Originally Posted by Farnsworth
The pressure washer example may be the best. With the finest nozzle it can eat concrete on mine. They make machines that cut steel with water. The velocity absolutely increases with smaller nozzles. It's not really even an argument on that. They even make shower heads with varying size holes to get spray patterns people might enjoy. An oil filter being directly after the oil pump is an easy situation. Eight small inlet holes will have higher pressure through them to maintain the same flow compared to eight larger holes. The small end of the tear drop acts as a smaller hole, gradually increasing to the larger side. So you are saying under flow the pressure within a cell is everywhere the same no matter the shape. I have known that for 50 years but am hung up on why they say it produces action at the hole exit. So if you overlap two holes side by side, slightly, one small and one large the velocity output is the same, but if holes are walled apart they output velocity is different? Good you commented on the subject. Discussions are not supposed to be tear downs to "win" by bullying or word tricks, but rather up lift, or at least be neutral. I have no use for people who don't up lift others. It's a very poor class if a teacher doesn't value each pupil as they are and with respect. We all are as we are, and that is fine. It's a big new problem where people can quickly look up info on the internet to appear "smart " to "win." I don't approach discussions that way. Cheers2
This is perhaps one of the most nonsensical posts I've seen on Bitog, and that's saying a lot. We've had some doozies in the past but you've done well. So if the exit hole for the fluid is small enough you can cut steel regardless of the pressure in the pipe?
Sure thing, have a great evening. Notice I said nothing about pressure behind the water jet. Thanks so much for the cutting me down when I already knew it takes a certain pressure. As long as it makes you happy, continue. Cheers2
 
Messages
966
Location
Upper midwest
The tear drop hole does NOTHING to spiral flow. It is all marketing. Unless you have a thicker plate with the tear drop machined at say a 45 deg angle and higher pressure then a Hyundai pump puts out, the backflow flap would negate swirl. The filter base plate is punched straight with the plate angle. And who wants swirl degrading the back side of the filter material? not me. We all know what slow river water can do with erosion, especially when hitting something at a 45 to 90 degree angle. As for if we smoothed out the tear drop opening to precision smooth teardrop hole we would get laminar flow in the shape of the tear drop with NO higher speed flow in smaller tear drop area. A Play Doh press machine with a star hole and an aluminum extrusion shaped extrusion would be an example smaller shaped would do nothing in smaller higher flow parts of the die. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKIescbcg9c&t=1s
 

4WD

Messages
16,607
Location
Texas
Rivers, mainly in laminar flow often erode soft soils and harder material over significant periods of time. ADBV's are made from resilient material that stands up to much higher solids content than filtered motor oil. Yes, generally Vnoz impact impinging against a surface travels forward at approximately the same speed … it just takes a flatter shape. I missed the part about swirl in all this … can't imagine what they mean without canted and extended nozzles … not punched holes …
 
Last edited:
Top