Fram vs Advanced Auto Parts

[Job]

Originally Posted by Ignatius

Originally Posted by ZeeOSix

Originally Posted by Farnsworth

Flow can stay the same amount but changed in direction, so improved flow can work in that sense. Fram uses PowerFlow Technology on the Titanium baseplate which apparently swirls the oil in a circle according to their box graphics. Other companies think a spiral center tube swirls the oil, and louvers play games with oil flow characteristics too. I can't see any of it doing anything, but they do.

Looks more like laminar flow on the graphics to me. Where's the graphics with the swirls?

I think the orange mist on the box is there to depict the POWERFLOW

I think so too. The higher oil pressure on the narrow side of the inlet hole causes a distortion in the flow pattern. The valve doesn't correct that. Ultimately the oil has to settle down and exit the round outlet pipe hole.

 

[LubricatusObsess]

The advantage to creating a lower restriction oil flow path means the filter can do it's job of filtering better - it doesn't provide more oil flow to lubricate the engine. We know engines use positive displacement gerotor oil pumps. The flow rate is fixed, only the pressure difference can vary, up to the relief valve pressure (in this case, the oil filter bypass valve pressure setting). Same with hydraulic oil systems. So, what does this mean? A less restrictive flow path produces less oil pressure in the lubrication system, which leaves more pressure build up to contaminant in the oil filter instead of the filter flow design itself. It means it can hold more dirt. Do we really need this? Again, I'd educatedly speculate probably not. I'd wager modern engines don't produce a lot of <20 micron wear metal debris or have substantial dirt ingestion. MOST engines, not all. Back in 1985, I wanted to know what my personal vehicle limiting oil life was, so I ran UOA every couple thousand miles or so. The limiting factor for me was silicon saturation at 14,000 miles. i.e. - dirt through the air filter finally accumulated to inability for the detergent / dispersant additive to hold in suspension.

 

[4WD]

Many vehicles are coming out with variable displacement pumps. Some come here and say they are moving less oil. Well, yeah if I'm setting at a red light it might drift down to 25 psi … but if I punch it to pass somebody it hits 75 psi in a heartbeat because it's moving more oil … This is why I follow the recommendations on filter PRV settings … that's a pretty good surge when it goes high stage …

 

[Triple_Se7en]

Originally Posted by 4WD

Many vehicles are coming out with variable displacement pumps. Some come here and say they are moving less oil. Well, yeah if I'm setting at a red light it might drift down to 25 psi … but if I punch it to pass somebody it hits 75 psi in a heartbeat because it's moving more oil … This is why I follow the recommendations on filter PRV settings … that's a pretty good surge when it goes high stage …

Sounds like the near future might merit a plug-in, fob-type oil filter. Engine works by computers & fobs. So why not the oil filter too.

 

[Job]

Originally Posted by LubricatusObsess

The advantage to creating a lower restriction oil flow path means the filter can do it's job of filtering better - it doesn't provide more oil flow to lubricate the engine. We know engines use positive displacement gerotor oil pumps. The flow rate is fixed, only the pressure difference can vary, up to the relief valve pressure (in this case, the oil filter bypass valve pressure setting). Same with hydraulic oil systems. So, what does this mean? A less restrictive flow path produces less oil pressure in the lubrication system, which leaves more pressure build up to contaminant in the oil filter instead of the filter flow design itself. It means it can hold more dirt. Do we really need this? Again, I'd educatedly speculate probably not. I'd wager modern engines don't produce a lot of <20 micron wear metal debris or have substantial dirt ingestion. MOST engines, not all. Back in 1985, I wanted to know what my personal vehicle limiting oil life was, so I ran UOA every couple thousand miles or so. The limiting factor for me was silicon saturation at 14,000 miles. i.e. - dirt through the air filter finally accumulated to inability for the detergent / dispersant additive to hold in suspension.

The narrow end of the titanium inlet hole is at a higher psi than the wide end. It's like any nozzle psi goes up when flow area goes down. The way I see it is this creates a changed flow path at the exit plane of the inlet hole. Flow total is the same always. Fram graphics designers decided to make something of it, probably exaggerated, and draw the orange swirl on the box.

 

[4WD]

Could be … a good start is posting more actual info on the box instead of wizbang and colors …

 

[LubricatusObsess]

Mesmerized public on "shiny object"

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted by LubricatusObsess

The advantage to creating a lower restriction oil flow path means the filter can do it's job of filtering better - it doesn't provide more oil flow to lubricate the engine. We know engines use positive displacement gerotor oil pumps. The flow rate is fixed, only the pressure difference can vary, up to the relief valve pressure (in this case, the oil filter bypass valve pressure setting). Same with hydraulic oil systems. So, what does this mean? A less restrictive flow path produces less oil pressure in the lubrication system, which leaves more pressure build up to contaminant in the oil filter instead of the filter flow design itself.

If the oil pressure sensor is down stream of the oil filter, then the oil pressure will read the same if the oil viscosity and flow is the same at the sensor, regardless of what the delta-p is across the oil filter. Only time you will see a difference in oil pressure between different restrictions at the filter is if/when the oil pump hits pressure relief and less than 100% volume output from the pump stops going through the oiling system.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted by Farnsworth

The narrow end of the titanium inlet hole is at a higher psi than the wide end. It's like any nozzle psi goes up when flow area goes down. The way I see it is this creates a changed flow path at the exit plane of the inlet hole. Flow total is the same always. Fram graphics designers decided to make something of it, probably exaggerated, and draw the orange swirl on the box.

All the oil is at basically the same pressure in the cavity of the oil filter mount on the inlet side of the base plate holes - regardless of the base plate inlet holes shape. There is a pressure drop across the inlet holes of course. If the flow path of a fluid causes turbulent flow ("swirls") then that will actually increase the drag and delta-p through that turbulent flow path. So if Fram is claiming (they haven't, but people are imagining) that the oil somehow "swirls" through the filter like a tornado because of the tear dropped inlet holes then that would actually increase the flow resistance (and total delta-p) across the filter. But Fram is claiming the Titanium has "better flow" ... which just means those bigger inlet holes have more flow area and less delta-p. The whole "swirl to increase flow" is imagined and good marketing to sell oil filters.

 

[CR94]

^^The whole business about the magic "better flow" holes is essentially much ado about (practically) nothing.

 

[Triple_Se7en]

Originally Posted by 4WD

Could be … a good start is posting more actual info on the box instead of wizbang and colors …

That box is attention-grabbing and probably helps sales. There was this blonde Linda in 12th Grade. She was attention-grabbing too, from the neck down. But no Kalidescope Eyes..... not blue either.

 

[RazorsEdge]

Originally Posted by CR94

^^The whole business about the magic "better flow" holes is essentially much ado about (practically) nothing.

Far as I'm concerned, this whole "new design" is laughable at best. I'll be sticking with Wix, Fram Ultra, Mobil, Supertech oil filters.

 

[Job]

Originally Posted by ZeeOSix

Originally Posted by Farnsworth

The narrow end of the titanium inlet hole is at a higher psi than the wide end. It's like any nozzle psi goes up when flow area goes down. The way I see it is this creates a changed flow path at the exit plane of the inlet hole. Flow total is the same always. Fram graphics designers decided to make something of it, probably exaggerated, and draw the orange swirl on the box.

All the oil is at basically the same pressure in the cavity of the oil filter mount on the inlet side of the base plate holes - regardless of the base plate inlet holes shape. There is a pressure drop across the inlet holes of course. If the flow path of a fluid causes turbulent flow ("swirls") then that will actually increase the drag and delta-p through that turbulent flow path. So if Fram is claiming (they haven't, but people are imagining) that the oil somehow "swirls" through the filter like a tornado because of the tear dropped inlet holes then that would actually increase the flow resistance (and total delta-p) across the filter. But Fram is claiming the Titanium has "better flow" ... which just means those bigger inlet holes have more flow area and less delta-p. The whole "swirl to increase flow" is imagined and good marketing to sell oil filters.

Originally Posted by ZeeOSix

[quote=Farnsworth]The narrow end of the titanium inlet hole is at a higher psi than the wide end. It's like any nozzle psi goes up when flow area goes down. The way I see it is this creates a changed flow path at the exit plane of the inlet hole. Flow total is the same always. Fram graphics designers decided to make something of it, probably exaggerated, and draw the orange swirl on the box.

The oil pressure changes at every boundary layer instantly even if it is paper thin. A garden hose with thumb can demonstrate how the jet increases according to thumb placement. We learned this as kids with the garden hose, and I know it isn't positive displacement. A small hole will spray more forcefully than a larger. When we want to spray the garden farther away we make the hole smaller with our thumb, or finger.

 

[4WD]

Impact force … Q x Vnoz

 

[ZeeOSix]

^^^ Not going to argue fluid dynamics with you, but your hose analogy just shows that restricting the flow area increase flow velocity (and also some flow volume if it's not a PD volume supplied but rather pressure supplied). Anyway, go study up on fluid dynamics and the the difference between laminar and turbulent flow (like "swirling"), and what happens when turbulent flow occurs, and when fluid flow fields take abrupt flow direction changes. If you want to believe that those tear drop holes cause some special tornado swirling flow phenomena (like supposedly shown on the box) that makes the filter work better, then knock yourself out ... Fram marketing did their job well, lol.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted by 4WD

Impact force … Q x Vnoz

Impact force on the ADBV to open it up ... then a total change of oil flow direction as it bounces off the opened ADBV, which would destroy any (non-existent) tornado "swirling" flow field.

 

[BLND1]

I'm just going to go back to OEM filters. I'm tired of the choice dilemma.

 

[dlundblad]

Is the titanium closer to the Extra Guard or the Tough Guard? I'm failing to see why we'd want to spend more on either a $4 or $7 filter.

 

[Ignatius]

Originally Posted by dlundblad

Is the titanium closer to the Extra Guard or the Tough Guard? I'm failing to see why we'd want to spend more on either a $4 or $7 filter.

Titanium = Ultra

 

[Job]

Originally Posted by ZeeOSix

^^^ Not going to argue fluid dynamics with you, but your hose analogy just shows that restricting the flow area increase flow velocity (and also some flow volume if it's not a PD volume supplied but rather pressure supplied). Anyway, go study up on fluid dynamics and the the difference between laminar and turbulent flow (like "swirling"), and what happens when turbulent flow occurs, and when fluid flow fields take abrupt flow direction changes. If you want to believe that those tear drop holes cause some special tornado swirling flow phenomena (like supposedly shown on the box) that makes the filter work better, then knock yourself out ... Fram marketing did their job well, lol.

I never said I know what the flow velocity change did. Fram shows the swirling and even structure in the swirl. I didn't draw it. Don't need to study up on fluid dynamics here, just need a garden hose and a thumb to study. Based on the garden hose analogy, I learned the tear drop holes do induce changes. Learning and having an open mind are not bad things.