Fram "Orange Can O' Death" - >1 year, >20k miles

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: telecat
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
^^^ If you don't find any tears on the particular filters you cut open doesn't mean everything is honky-dory.

It means everything is hunky dory for ME, now doesn't it?

What happens with youse guys is your own bidness. Personally, I think extended OCIs are nonsense, engines are stupid, and manufacturer-recommended OCIs have marketing geared toward wearing out the car faster built into such recommendations. My oil was remarkably clean draining after 3k, and the ADBV made swapping the filter a snap.


You really are living in the 1940s or something.

Yeah, any oil is pretty much going to look clean with only a 3K OCI in the clean and efficient engines of today (compared to the engines of the 40s).

Originally Posted By: telecat
I also think extended OCIs are partly responsible for the tears popping up. There MAY be a problem with the filters, but as I said, my own experience will form my opinion. I remain unconvinced the problem is as widespread as some here claim. I'm, reading a LOT of FUD in this thread alone.


Your own experience is out in 6 sigma land. I've seen cars with 300K miles on them that didn't have "3,000 mile or 3 months" OCIs.

Originally Posted By: telecat
A longer OCI will have you at the engine shop or the dealer's showroom faster than a 3K OCI.


"True in your world", not true in the real world.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
Originally Posted By: telecat
I also think extended OCIs are partly responsible for the tears popping up. There MAY be a problem with the filters, but as I said, my own experience will form my opinion. I remain unconvinced the problem is as widespread as some here claim. I'm, reading a LOT of FUD in this thread alone.

A longer OCI will have you at the engine shop or the dealer's showroom faster than a 3K OCI. Seems penny wise and pound foolish to me. For me, a 3k OCI means three oil changes per year. Maybe four. Not expensive.

Finally, a member here that seems to have the same thinking mentality as me and is not programmed like most.
Telecat, I am member BlueOvalFitter and am darn proud to meet you!

BOF, you better start doing 3K OCIs too, and drop your oil & filter at 3 months even if there is only 10 miles on it.

 

[tommygunn]

The problem with the long OCIs is this: If you have a car that has a 20K OCI, then technically, Fram for example doesn't have a filter for you.

OCOD is rated at 5K
Tough Guard at 10K
Synthetic at 15K

And it's quite hard to tell which one of them would correspond to the car manufacturer's specifications for that oil filter that is designed to run 20K.

All European and Asian manufacturers only have one product line that is build to the engine specifics instead and specifically designed to last those 20K or whatever the OCI may be. If nothing else, it takes out the guesswork.

This is what I mean:

If the OEM filter is a Tough Guard without the sieve, then what's the point of the OCOD that obviously doesn't meet the manufacturer's specification?

 

[BlueOvalFitter]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
Originally Posted By: telecat
I also think extended OCIs are partly responsible for the tears popping up. There MAY be a problem with the filters, but as I said, my own experience will form my opinion. I remain unconvinced the problem is as widespread as some here claim. I'm, reading a LOT of FUD in this thread alone.

A longer OCI will have you at the engine shop or the dealer's showroom faster than a 3K OCI. Seems penny wise and pound foolish to me. For me, a 3k OCI means three oil changes per year. Maybe four. Not expensive.

Finally, a member here that seems to have the same thinking mentality as me and is not programmed like most.
Telecat, I am member BlueOvalFitter and am darn proud to meet you!

BOF, you better start doing 3K OCIs too, and drop your oil & filter at 3 months even if there is only 10 miles on it.

Z06, I currently have over 7.5K miles on a PSB 5W30 OCI. I am due an OCI very soon. Common sense, along with any of today's great SN oils, are all that is needed to avoid the typical "old school" ways of 3K mile OCIs.

 

[gtmaster303]

Originally Posted By: tommygunn
The problem with the long OCIs is this: If you have a car that has a 20K OCI, then technically, Fram for example doesn't have a filter for you.

OCOD is rated at 5K
Tough Guard at 10K
Synthetic at 15K

And it's quite hard to tell which one of them would correspond to the car manufacturer's specifications for that oil filter that is designed to run 20K.

All European and Asian manufacturers only have one product line that is build to the engine specifics instead and specifically designed to last those 20K or whatever the OCI may be. If nothing else, it takes out the guesswork.

This is what I mean:

If the OEM filter is a Tough Guard without the sieve, then what's the point of the OCOD that obviously doesn't meet the manufacturer's specification?

Actually, Fram filters are rated for manufacturer's interval, even if it's longer than listed. So the OCOD is rated for 5k, but if your factory interval is 10k, and they list the filter on their site as compatible with your car, then you can run the filter for 10k. Called and confirmed this. Obviously there's more protection to be had with the higher tier filter, but running the OCOD for 10k is totally possible.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: tommygunn
The problem with the long OCIs is this: If you have a car that has a 20K OCI, then technically, Fram for example doesn't have a filter for you.

OCOD is rated at 5K
Tough Guard at 10K
Synthetic at 15K


That means the Honda OEM filter shouldn't make it 20K either. But if you say a Honda OEM can, then a Fram Ultra certainly can, and probably the TG too. A Honda OEM is no better than any of those two IMO in terms of filter use duration.

 

[telecat]

You guys who don't approve of my philosophy are a real hoot.

Please note, I never said anything about YOU...something you fellers cannot claim. Personal attacks aside, I do my preventative maintenance as I see fit. If you don't think I'm doing it right, if you think I'm wasting my money, I have a newsflash for you:

I don't care.

You don't drive my beat up little S10, I do. I couldn't care less if you go 100k between oil chances. Knock yourselves out, NOT. MY. PROBLEM.

But I don't understand why some of you insist these extended intervals could not POSSIBLY be a contributing factor to filter failures. They could.

Just the same, think what you want, do what you want. Whatever.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: telecat
But I don't understand why some of you insist these extended intervals could not POSSIBLY be a contributing factor to filter failures.


Because there have been many filters cut open and posted here that look just fine after 10K, 15K, even 20K of use.

Oil filters are not designed to blow-up at 3,001 miles. Manufacturers say their filters are warrantied for whatever the vehicle manufacturer says the FCI should be. For modern Hondas that use an OLM and the A/B maintenance schedule, an oil filter could be on the engine for up as much as 20K miles.

So what does the service manual say the OCI should be for your S10?

 

[telecat]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
So what does the service manual say the OCI should be for your S10?
3k in stop and go, 5k if predominantly highway driving. Mine is a mix, and I err on the side of caution.

I don't care about anybody else's experience, either. I don't know enough about what variables are in play to have an opinion. Until I see, for myself, IN PERSON, a torn pleat in a filter, I will use what I think is good, based on MY experience. The picture of Frams with the cardboard end caps make me pucker. I'll stick with P-Classic for the next six months, and see how it fares. As I said, if the filter I open up is torn, I'll eat my share of crow. But if it's intact, I will point and laugh.

 

[ZeeOSix]

^^^ Sooner or later you'll probably get a torn Purolator. If not, great. If so, please report it even though I doubt you'd want to admit to eating some crow.

Sure there are many use "factors" involved that can contribute to the media failures. I've had one torn Classic that only had 5K miles on it and used in a very clean engine, and the car wasn't used in very cold weather; 25 deg F was the coldest it ever say over the OCI.

 

[gtmaster303]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
and the car wasn't used in very cold weather; 25 deg F was the coldest it ever say over the OCI.

Um, 25F is pretty cold if you ask me, lol

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: gtmaster303
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
and the car wasn't used in very cold weather; 25 deg F was the coldest it ever say over the OCI.

Um, 25F is pretty cold if you ask me, lol


Not really ... how about guys who go fire up their car at 6 am in Montana or Minnesota when it's -30 deg F below zero.

 

[telecat]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
how about guys who go fire up their car at 6 am in Montana or Minnesota when it's -30 deg F below zero.
Anybody not using a pan heater and a block heater in -30 conditions deserves what they get.,

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: telecat
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
how about guys who go fire up their car at 6 am in Montana or Minnesota when it's -30 deg F below zero.
Anybody not using a pan heater and a block heater in -30 conditions deserves what they get.,


With a full synthetic like 0W-20, you probably really wouldn't need an engine heater in those conditions - but of course the smarter people would most likely use an engine heater if they had it. I'm sure there are a lot of way below zero cold starts in those states in the dead of winter.

 

[telecat]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix


With a full synthetic like 0W-20, you probably really wouldn't need an engine heater in those conditions - but of course the smarter people would most likely use an engine heater if they had it. I'm sure there are a lot of way below zero cold starts in those states in the dead of winter.
I believe you are mistaken, sir.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: telecat
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix


With a full synthetic like 0W-20, you probably really wouldn't need an engine heater in those conditions - but of course the smarter people would most likely use an engine heater if they had it. I'm sure there are a lot of way below zero cold starts in those states in the dead of winter.
I believe you are mistaken, sir.


Show me the data that a full synthetic 0W-20 wouldn't be fine at -30 deg F. I've seen cars with conventional oil fired up at temps way below zero. They certainly didn't like it, but it happens.

 

[CHARLIEBRONSON21]

Agreed. I had an Amsoil Ea15K13 run over 25k and it looks VERY rough. This looks like 8k on an engine that wasn't rough on oil. Or she couldn't remember when it was changed and it was actually done 3 months/3000 miles ago.

 

[Motorking]

OCOD!
Do you know that FRAM employs over 3500 well paid workers and engineers in Ohio and Illinois?
Every time you or anyone else causes us to lose a sale because you refer to our product as OCOD, somebody may lose their job. I could really wrap my arms around this if there were any truth whatsoever to the story. We make over 320 million filters per year. We are a major OE supplier with many OE's using our designs and now that the patent has expired, many other filter companies doing the same. We stand behind our product 110%. If we fail and engine due to manufacturing issue, we buy it. We get letters every day from users with 500k, 600k and even 720k on an Infinity J20 all using the nefarious OCOD. Just asking for this to go away, it is hurting our business and lets competitors point to internet anecdotes as proof of our quality. The only proof is in oil analysis and we always come out of that smelling like a rose.

 

[Motorking]

Originally Posted By: gtmaster303
Originally Posted By: telecat
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
^^^ If you don't find any tears on the particular filters you cut open doesn't mean everything is honky-dory.

It means everything is hunky dory for ME, now doesn't it?

What happens with youse guys is your own bidness. Personally, I think extended OCIs are nonsense, engines are stupid, and manufacturer-recommended OCIs have marketing geared toward wearing out the car faster built into such recommendations. My oil was remarkably clean draining after 3k, and the ADBV made swapping the filter a snap. I also think extended OCIs are partly responsible for the tears popping up. There MAY be a problem with the filters, but as I said, my own experience will form my opinion. I remain unconvinced the problem is as widespread as some here claim. I'm, reading a LOT of FUD in this thread alone.

A longer OCI will have you at the engine shop or the dealer's showroom faster than a 3K OCI. Seems penny wise and pound foolish to me. For me, a 3k OCI means three oil changes per year. Maybe four. Not expensive.

Filter failure or not, it's not like there's any engine damage to behold. Modern engines are pretty [censored] bulletproof and with adequate OCIs, nearly everything else will break before the engine does. And even if by some chance there is engine failure, there's a lot of other reasons before it comes down to purely filter and oil.

Even my neighbor across the street has been running his Acura TL and Subaru B9 Tribeca on conventional oil for 10k+ (even past the oil life monitor reading, gasp!) for years, and the engines haven't failed yet.

There's a lot of milling on oil, filters, and intervals but not many stories on engine failures. And of the engine failures I have seen, the majority are due to stupidity (never changing oil, poor maintenance, etc.)
3k changes not expensive? Depends on who you ask. Bad for the environment? Definitely. Worth the peace of mind? Your choice.

Manufacturers aren't conspiring to design a maintenance schedule that will have your car break down after the warranty period. That's just bad practice and not in their interest. If the car is that bad, you'd be smart to not buy from that company again. They would lose you as a customer and get a bad rap, which above all else is what they don't want.
Either way this topic fascinates me, hence why I'm here.


the biggest engine failures we are now seeing at FRAM are on engines with timing chains, plastic guides and direct fuel injection pumps. the failures ARE NOT caused by extended drain intervals, the majority are caused by using oil that does not meet the OE manufacturers specifications, plain and simple. the majority of oil used in quick lubes does not meet 2010 and newer specifications. It doesnt matter how often you change you oil, if you use the wrong stuff, something will fail.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Motorking
OCOD!

Jay, perhaps Fram could take advantage of this from a marketing perspective. Every twentieth orange can that comes off the line gets painted with a skull and crossbones. Whoever buys the filter gets a coupon for their next orange can free.