Fram Endurance / Walmart End of Life ?

[ZeeOSix]

I wasn’t talking about baseplate pressure changes. The oil is dispersed more evenly and directed at the pleats more square on with slots or oval holes or plenty of any shaped holes. Much better imo.

How do you know? You don't without a sophisticated fluid dynamics flow model and the results of that flow model. Even if it did improve the flow "distribution" field some, it's not going to make the filter perform any better in terms of making the oil go through the media. It all goes through the media one way or the other - it's naturally always looking for the path of lease flow resistance. And the oil flow field will naturally distribute regardless of the holes it goes through in the base plate. Look at the OG Ultra that Ascent tested. It has relatively "small" base plate holes (and also relatively "small" holes in the center tube, but a lot of them) and it still smoked the competition in the ISO 4548-12 efficiency test. And it's overall dP vs flow was right there with the best of any other in that test. Those "small" base plate holes worked just fine.

BTW - you do realize that the flow also has to go around the ADBV, which is never fully out of the way in operation. That resulting change in flow direction will disrupt the flow field coming through the holes, so another reason the shape of the holes really isn't that important.

There are so many fittings and pressure changes in an engine, base plate change in pressure isn’t going to be one they worry about. In fact many oil filters meet the base plate spec, all of them actually. It only needs total holes to be bigger than the outlet pipe and there is no problem.

Well yeah ... that's what I said before. It won't make much if any difference in dP vs flow across the base plate unless there's actually more flow area in the holes.

 

[Fair enough]

How do you know? You don't without a sophisticated fluid dynamics flow model and the results of that flow model. Even if it did improve the flow "distribution" field some, it's not going to make the filter perform any better in terms of making the oil go through the media. It all goes through the media one way or the other - it's naturally always looking for the path of lease flow resistance. And the oil flow field will naturally distribute regardless of the holes it goes through in the base plate. Look at the OG Ultra that Ascent tested. It has relatively "small" base plate holes (and also relatively "small" holes in the center tube, but a lot of them) and it still smoked the competition in the ISO 4548-12 efficiency test. And it's overall dP vs flow was right there with the best of any other in that test. Those "small" base plate holes worked just fine.

BTW - you do realize that the flow also has to go around the ADBV, which is never fully out of the way in operation. That resulting change in flow direction will disrupt the flow field coming through the holes, so another reason the shape of the holes really isn't that important.


Well yeah ... that's what I said before. It won't make much if any difference in dP vs flow across the base plate unless there's actually more flow area in the holes.

All that at 12:33AM?
I’m not reading all of it but if you think oil is not spread out going through a slot just keep on thinking it. Makes the adbv bend more evenly too. Imagine one base hole. The media is very close, the spread oil won’t change shape much before it goes to the next pressure change barrier, the media. What a thing to make an argument over.

 

[Glenda W.]

All that at 12:33AM?

What does this have to do with anything?

 

[jimmyjamesndt]

What does this have to do with anything?

My screen says 10:33 pm, think I am on Mountain Time.

 

[ZeeOSix]

All that at 12:33AM?
I’m not reading all of it but if you think oil is not spread out going through a slot just keep on thinking it. Makes the adbv bend more evenly too. Imagine one base hole. The media is very close, the spread oil won’t change shape much before it goes to the next pressure change barrier, the media.

You think that's a lot to read? You think everyone is on your time schedule or in the same time zone, lol. The fact is when the oil goes through the base plate holes it hits the ADBV and the flow then drastically changes direction and redistributes, then goes up past the outer circumference of the ADBV and again redistributes again between the inside of the can and media. By the time it gets to the media the effect of the base plate holes on how it distributes itself across the meida is insignificant. But you just keep believeing what you want about how fluid dynamics works. You liked those tear drop holes in the Titanum too after being sucked in by the claims that it caused the oil to twist around like a tornado inside the filter, lol.

What a thing to make an argument over.

Then why do you keep participating in it.

 

[ZeeOSix]

My screen says 10:33 pm, think I am on Mountain Time.

I made that post at 9:33 PM my time.

 

[Hohn]

Deleted.

 

[Hohn]

I just want the best filtration efficiency, that's my only concern. I mean, price too. I've started buying Fram Endurance over Amsoil, simply because they have the best efficiency, and the Fram is half the price.

Unless someone can point me to a more efficient filter.

Efficiency is important, but not all-important. Choking the flow to gain efficiency isn't a good trade.

 

[Fair enough]

What does this have to do with anything?

What does this have to do with anything?

 

[Glenda W.]

What does this have to do with anything?

Echo

 

[SC Maintenance]

How do you know? You don't without a sophisticated fluid dynamics flow model and the results of that flow model. Even if it did improve the flow "distribution" field some, it's not going to make the filter perform any better in terms of making the oil go through the media. It all goes through the media one way or the other - it's naturally always looking for the path of lease flow resistance. And the oil flow field will naturally distribute regardless of the holes it goes through in the base plate. Look at the OG Ultra that Ascent tested. It has relatively "small" base plate holes (and also relatively "small" holes in the center tube, but a lot of them) and it still smoked the competition in the ISO 4548-12 efficiency test. And it's overall dP vs flow was right there with the best of any other in that test. Those "small" base plate holes worked just fine.

BTW - you do realize that the flow also has to go around the ADBV, which is never fully out of the way in operation. That resulting change in flow direction will disrupt the flow field coming through the holes, so another reason the shape of the holes really isn't that important.


Well yeah ... that's what I said before. It won't make much if any difference in dP vs flow across the base plate unless there's actually more flow area in the holes.

OK, admittedly my last fluid dynamics course was some time ago, and I don't do fluids professionally - but since the oil density is high and the velocity is low, wouldn't all flow inside a oil filter be for the most part laminar anyway?

 

[ZeeOSix]

OK, admittedly my last fluid dynamics course was some time ago, and I don't do fluids professionally - but since the oil density is high and the velocity is low, wouldn't all flow inside a oil filter be for the most part laminar anyway?

Depends on the flow rate, and the exact flow passages and flow paths. If you have 8-10 GPM flowing through the filter there's going to be some turbulent flow.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Efficiency is important, but not all-important. Choking the flow to gain efficiency isn't a good trade.

What's choking the flow, and by how much?

 

[Hohn]

What's choking the flow, and by how much?

That subjective, but for me, it would be sending the filter in the bypass with lukewarm oil near the end of its life

 

[ZeeOSix]

That subjective, but for me, it would be sending the filter in the bypass with lukewarm oil near the end of its life

It would depend on many factors. Obviously, the level of loading will raise the dP vs flow curve compared to the new filter. And of course you would have to see the actual dP vs flow curve of the new filter to begin with. And the flow rate through the filter is a big factor, so if your car has a high volume oil pump and you're driving around near redline all the time with thicker oil than not (due to grade and/or oil temperature), then of course you wouldn't want a thimble size oil filter. And you would want to run the largest available and one that has a lower than not dP vs flow curve to start with. And as we have seen, the right oil filter can be high efficiency, high holding capacity and have a comparatively low dP vs flow curve - ie, the OG Ultra was all of that, until it was sacrificed by the First Brands bean counters.

 

[0dyfamily]

I think I forgot to put in the most important results from that 3,330-mile sample supported by the Fram Endurance FE7317, namely the ISO 4406 numbers: 24/22/15.

My interest is in the last one, as the first two are for particles >4 and >6 microns, respectively. That "15" is for particles greater than 14 microns, which to me is the more important of the three. @Jim Allen came up with an ISO number of "17" as an average for new oil in quart bottles via testing and obtaining data from other means.

This means the Fram Endurance kept the oil "cleaner than new" for particulates greater than 14 microns, while the oil held the smaller and much smaller particles in suspension until the next oil change.

Again, disappointed that this excellent Fram Endurance is leaving the stage. It was a truly excellent "bang for buck" oil filter choice in terms of supporting the oil, so that the oil can support our engines.

No, I didn't open one up. I can't tell if a filter is "good" or "not so good" by performing an autopsy, counting pleats, looking at the ADBV or bypass valve, etc. So, I send in samples and ask for lab results.

OF

 

[Ronn]

I think I forgot to put in the most important results from that 3,330-mile sample supported by the Fram Endurance FE7317, namely the ISO 4406 numbers: 24/22/15.

My interest is in the last one, as the first two are for particles >4 and >6 microns, respectively. That "15" is for particles greater than 14 microns, which to me is the more important of the three. @Jim Allen came up with an ISO number of "17" as an average for new oil in quart bottles via testing and obtaining data from other means.

This means the Fram Endurance kept the oil "cleaner than new" for particulates greater than 14 microns, while the oil held the smaller and much smaller particles in suspension until the next oil change.

Again, disappointed that this excellent Fram Endurance is leaving the stage. It was a truly excellent "bang for buck" oil filter choice in terms of supporting the oil, so that the oil can support our engines.

No, I didn't open one up. I can't tell if a filter is "good" or "not so good" by performing an autopsy, counting pleats, looking at the ADBV or bypass valve, etc. So, I send in samples and ask for lab results.

OF

But the Bypass Gap is there!!
I’ll continue to use the Endurance for the results stated with 100% confidence.

 

[Glenda W.]

I think I forgot to put in the most important results from that 3,330-mile sample supported by the Fram Endurance FE7317, namely the ISO 4406 numbers: 24/22/15.

My interest is in the last one, as the first two are for particles >4 and >6 microns, respectively. That "15" is for particles greater than 14 microns, which to me is the more important of the three. @Jim Allen came up with an ISO number of "17" as an average for new oil in quart bottles via testing and obtaining data from other means.

This means the Fram Endurance kept the oil "cleaner than new" for particulates greater than 14 microns, while the oil held the smaller and much smaller particles in suspension until the next oil change.

Again, disappointed that this excellent Fram Endurance is leaving the stage. It was a truly excellent "bang for buck" oil filter choice in terms of supporting the oil, so that the oil can support our engines.

No, I didn't open one up. I can't tell if a filter is "good" or "not so good" by performing an autopsy, counting pleats, looking at the ADBV or bypass valve, etc. So, I send in samples and ask for lab results.

OF

Definitely a leaker. Right in line with the Boss.

 

[0dyfamily]

But the Bypass Gap is there!!

That definitely was a "thing" many years ago.

I actually looked at one of the Fram filters close up (we put three of the Endurance filters into use during the last "family vehicle servicing") and found that the casting seam on the plastic bypass valve is no longer present. It's totally smooth, for a good seal on the valve. It's a marked manufacturing improvement.

My ISO numbers were measured at 3,330 miles in a Honda J35 V6, so I'm sure I hit "filter equilibrium" in terms of particulates generated by a living breathing engines and what the filter was capturing in real life. Mobil 1 HM EP 0W-20 oil.

@Glenda W. , what engine, oil and time or miles-in-use combination generated the data for that chart? Definitely curious for more context.

OF

 

[Ronn]

Definitely a leaker. Right in line

That definitely was a "thing" many years ago.

I actually looked at one of the Fram filters close up (we put three of the Endurance filters into use during the last "family vehicle servicing") and found that the casting seam on the plastic bypass valve is no longer present. It's totally smooth, for a good seal on the valve. It's a marked manufacturing improvement.

My ISO numbers were measured at 3,330 miles in a Honda J35 V6, so I'm sure I hit "filter equilibrium" in terms of particulates generated by a living breathing engines and what the filter was capturing in real life. Mobil 1 HM EP 0W-20 oil.

@Glenda W. , what engine, oil and time or miles-in-use combination generated the data for that chart? Definitely curious for more context.

OF

It’s not the seating of the plastic valve itself….
It’s the seating of the spring plate as it sits on the filter top that has shown gaps using a flashlight.
For me, it’s a nothing burger…but for most here it’s “catastrophic”.
The final test is what’s in the used oil…and you’ve demonstrated the filter works as advertised.