Fram CH10955 Fail (Pentastar V6 filter)

[Skippy722]

Originally Posted by StevieC


Do you know what the oil pressure and temperatures are at full operating temperature? I can compare this to mine if you want to see if the blockage is affecting the cooler or oil pressure. The only thing we can't know is if it blocked one of the piston cooling jets which is also fed off the main gallery along with the crank bearings.


I too can give oil pressure readings and temps, if needed. Can never have enough data!

 

[newtoncd8]

To the OP, thanks for posting the information in this thread. I have a Pentastar of that era and have an interest in this information and how it may apply to my vehicle. Up to this point, I have always used MOPAR filters and have never experienced the issues you are seeing with the Fram filter. I recently picked up a few Mobil 1 filters on clearance at Wal-Mart and will be watching to see how they perform.

 

[CR94]

Originally Posted by ARCOgraphite
I would be nice if the manufacturers could employ a reusable St Steel centertube.
- But Then you would have to clean it in the parts washer ...
I don't understand these over-complicated Chrysler cartridges. My Toyota cartridge housing has a steel center tube and a captive spring as parts of the cap. Easy! There's no need to clean the tube, because it stays just as clean as (nearly?) everything else that's exposed to oil in the engine.

 

[davison0976]

Originally Posted by Sayjac
Nice follow up comparison of the Mopar cartridge to the Fram. As it was apparently the point of failure or defect, I was most interested in the cage comparison. I note with the Mopar that it seems based on the picture that significant torque applied to it before it shattered. That as compared to the Fram which you noted broke with "finger"/hand force. Is that conclusion about right?


I could break cage ring of Fram filter with my fingers by squeezing firmly with a thumb and an index finger. I could not break a ring from Mopar filter in the same way. That is not to say that someone with stronger hands wouldn't be able to do that. I was just pointing out that Mopar's cage is stronger. The plastic of both filters does have about the same elasticity before it breaks.

 

[davison0976]

Originally Posted by Skippy722
Originally Posted by StevieC


Do you know what the oil pressure and temperatures are at full operating temperature? I can compare this to mine if you want to see if the blockage is affecting the cooler or oil pressure. The only thing we can't know is if it blocked one of the piston cooling jets which is also fed off the main gallery along with the crank bearings.


I too can give oil pressure readings and temps, if needed. Can never have enough data!


Thank you Stevie and Skippy. Much appreciate it. I don't own a scanner that would allow me to get a live pressure readings at different rpms. I'll see if a local auto store can do that for me this weekend. If the pressure is within norm that will rule out the pressure relief valve.

As far as the missing plastic piece I can see based on the reference information kindly posted that it's like looking for a needle in a haystack. One would have to start taking the engine apart and there is no guarantee that it can be found. I am planning to do a UAO at the end of current OCI which is expected to be sometime this October. Luckily, I do have probably 4, definitely 3, UAOs done on this engine. That's my baseline to measure against. If the wear will be in line with the averages I am not going to do anything at all. Otherwise, I would reevaluate my options.

 

[Pinoak]

What a piece of fram!!

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted by davison0976
I don't own a scanner that would allow me to get a live pressure readings at different rpms. I'll see if a local auto store can do that for me this weekend. If the pressure is within norm that will rule out the pressure relief valve.


The filter bypass valve doesn't operate from the engine oil pressure, it only operates from the delta-p across the filter media.

Monitoring the engine oil pressure under normal driving conditions will tell you nothing about if the filter bypass valve is operating correctly or not.

Have you physically checked out the filter bypass valve in the filter housing to make sure it moves normally and isn't locked up or sticky?

 

[Skippy722]

On my trip home from work, ~15 miles. Ambient temp is 43F

Starting Oil temp: 51F (I forgot to check till I got to the stop light a mile up the road)
Oil PSI: 72psi

Cold highway cruising temp at 60mph: 60F
Cold highway cruising psi at 60mph: 79psi

Warm idle temp: 170F
Warm idle pressure: 28psi-33psi

Warm cruising temp: 174F
Warm cruising psi: depends on what gear and if I'm driving up a hill maintaining speed, between 40 and 70psi

Flooring it results in it going straight to 90+psi.

 

[Skippy722]

Woops... warm cruising in my previous post should be "warm acceleration"!!!

Warm cruising is 170-174F and 35-40psi.

 

[Sayjac]

Originally Posted by davison0976
…. I was just pointing out that Mopar's cage is stronger......
That answers my question, thanks.

 

[davison0976]

Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Originally Posted by davison0976
I don't own a scanner that would allow me to get a live pressure readings at different rpms. I'll see if a local auto store can do that for me this weekend. If the pressure is within norm that will rule out the pressure relief valve.


The filter bypass valve doesn't operate from the engine oil pressure, it only operates from the delta-p across the filter media.

Monitoring the engine oil pressure under normal driving conditions will tell you nothing about if the filter bypass valve is operating correctly or not.

Have you physically checked out the filter bypass valve in the filter housing to make sure it moves normally and isn't locked up or sticky?


Try to keep up with a conversation and read more carefully. I was talking about oil pressure RELIEF VALVE, not an oil filter bypass valve. Also, don't quote incomplete snippets thus making wrong insinuations.

What you should have said is that because oil filter has a bypass valve, even if the engine oil relief valve malfunctions it will not cause an excessive pressure differential (the delta-p term you like to use so much) across the media to cause a collapse. The only two ways an oil filter can collapse in this case is a) when the plastic cage is weak enough as to not withstand the pressure at or below that of an oil filter bypass valve as designed by a manufacturer, or b) when the oil filter bypass valve malfunctions and does not relieve a pressure across the filter media as designed.

But thank you for leading me to think about it anyway.

 

[davison0976]

Originally Posted by WobblyElvis
Problem with the bypass valve?
Can you get the nozzle of a shop vac in there and try to pull the piece back out of the oil passage?
I might have left that filter in one piece and sent it to Fram. If there is no problem with the bypass valve they should be on the hook for this.


Thank you. This makes perfect sense. I kept your response in the back of my head, but I didn't completely understand all the insight at first.

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted by davison0976
What you should have said is that because oil filter has a bypass valve, even if the engine oil relief valve malfunctions it will not cause an excessive pressure differential (the delta-p term you like to use so much) across the media to cause a collapse. The only two ways an oil filter can collapse in this case is a) when the plastic cage is weak enough as to not withstand the pressure at or below that of an oil filter bypass valve as designed by a manufacturer, or b) when the oil filter bypass valve malfunctions and does not relieve a pressure across the filter media as designed.

No, that isn't true. There is another way. Should I show you on one of my BMW Hengst filters?

 

[ARCOgraphite]

O.P: Do you run E85 by any chance? With certain oils. this can gum up the media and lead to high deltaP. Ive seen it in my old ford Ranger.
Long and narrow filter form factors are suboptimal right out of the gate. But likely necessitated by drivetrain packaging.

 

[Job]

The element looks clean, and the cage breaks easily with fingers. Fram made a bad filter.

 

[davison0976]

Originally Posted by ARCOgraphite
O.P: Do you run E85 by any chance? With certain oils. this can gum up the media and lead to high deltaP. Ive seen it in my old ford Ranger.
Long and narrow filter form factors are suboptimal right out of the gate. But likely necessitated by drivetrain packaging.



No, never even tried E85. Always branded gas. OCIs are every October and April regardless of mileage which has never been over 5,000 miles. Oil filter changed every time oil is changed. This time only 3,873 mile OCI. Always top shelf full synthetic oil. Always let it warm up till temperature gauge moves off the dead bottom before driving. Never rev it up past 4000rpm. Owned it since brand new with 9 miles on odo. It has just turned 56,000. NJ winters are mild. Doesn't get too cold here for oil to get really thick.

Can't get much better than that really. Oh, and it was never taken off-road in its life.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted by davison0976
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Originally Posted by davison0976
I don't own a scanner that would allow me to get a live pressure readings at different rpms. I'll see if a local auto store can do that for me this weekend. If the pressure is within norm that will rule out the pressure relief valve.


The filter bypass valve doesn't operate from the engine oil pressure, it only operates from the delta-p across the filter media.

Monitoring the engine oil pressure under normal driving conditions will tell you nothing about if the filter bypass valve is operating correctly or not.

Have you physically checked out the filter bypass valve in the filter housing to make sure it moves normally and isn't locked up or sticky?


Try to keep up with a conversation and read more carefully. I was talking about oil pressure RELIEF VALVE, not an oil filter bypass valve. Also, don't quote incomplete snippets thus making wrong insinuations.


You don't have to be an [censored] about it. You weren't following what I was saying. Why such a flippant response?

Originally Posted by davison0976
What you should have said is that because oil filter has a bypass valve, even if the engine oil relief valve malfunctions it will not cause an excessive pressure differential (the delta-p term you like to use so much) across the media to cause a collapse. The only two ways an oil filter can collapse in this case is a) when the plastic cage is weak enough as to not withstand the pressure at or below that of an oil filter bypass valve as designed by a manufacturer, or b) when the oil filter bypass valve malfunctions and does not relieve a pressure across the filter media as designed.

But thank you for leading me to think about it anyway.


Don't tell me "what I should have said".

Yeah, pretty much what I said. So did you check to make sure the filter bypass valve is operating correclty, and isn't locked up or sticking as I previously asked. Obviously, you haven't thought about other possible causes of the failure all the way through, so yeah, your welcome.

 

[davison0976]

Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Originally Posted by davison0976
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Originally Posted by davison0976
I don't own a scanner that would allow me to get a live pressure readings at different rpms. I'll see if a local auto store can do that for me this weekend. If the pressure is within norm that will rule out the pressure relief valve.


The filter bypass valve doesn't operate from the engine oil pressure, it only operates from the delta-p across the filter media.

Monitoring the engine oil pressure under normal driving conditions will tell you nothing about if the filter bypass valve is operating correctly or not.

Have you physically checked out the filter bypass valve in the filter housing to make sure it moves normally and isn't locked up or sticky?


Try to keep up with a conversation and read more carefully. I was talking about oil pressure RELIEF VALVE, not an oil filter bypass valve. Also, don't quote incomplete snippets thus making wrong insinuations.


You don't have to be an [censored] about it. You weren't following what I was saying. Why such a flippant response?

Originally Posted by davison0976
What you should have said is that because oil filter has a bypass valve, even if the engine oil relief valve malfunctions it will not cause an excessive pressure differential (the delta-p term you like to use so much) across the media to cause a collapse. The only two ways an oil filter can collapse in this case is a) when the plastic cage is weak enough as to not withstand the pressure at or below that of an oil filter bypass valve as designed by a manufacturer, or b) when the oil filter bypass valve malfunctions and does not relieve a pressure across the filter media as designed.

But thank you for leading me to think about it anyway.


Don't tell me "what I should have said".

Yeah, pretty much what I said. So did you check to make sure the filter bypass valve is operating correclty, and isn't locked up or sticking as I previously asked. Obviously, you haven't thought about other possible causes of the failure all the way through, so yeah, your welcome.



I just gave you the taste of your own medicine. Because you didn't follow my post, twisted the words around and came across as an [censored] in the first place. If that was not your intent, and you simply don't realize how you come across sometimes, at a personal level I didn't mean to offend you. It's just between you and one other individual both have been insinuating ridiculous things on this thread. Water under the bridge on my side. Hope you are strong enough man to feel the same.

The bypass valve which is a part of the housing is perfectly fine.

 

[davison0976]

Originally Posted by Skippy722
On my trip home from work, ~15 miles. Ambient temp is 43F

Starting Oil temp: 51F (I forgot to check till I got to the stop light a mile up the road)
Oil PSI: 72psi

Cold highway cruising temp at 60mph: 60F
Cold highway cruising psi at 60mph: 79psi

Warm idle temp: 170F
Warm idle pressure: 28psi-33psi

Warm cruising temp: 174F
Warm cruising psi: depends on what gear and if I'm driving up a hill maintaining speed, between 40 and 70psi

Flooring it results in it going straight to 90+psi.



Thank you for taking time to make the observations and post such a detailed information. Very much appreciate it!

 

[davison0976]

For anyone who may question how well the vehicle is maintained I do keep a very detailed log and images of almost all services performed. Here they are from October 20, 2019 when the failed filter was going in.