Fram CH10955 Fail (Pentastar V6 filter)

[Sayjac]

Unlike so many threads posted, fantastic follow up to the OP, which I appreciate. Kudos to you. Reading the detailed OP, I never gave a thought or considered that you used the incorrect cartridge application ie., as reason for failure. Newer cartridge (2014+) is significantly different in design.

Because of this thread while in WM yesterday I took a peak at the topic CH10955. Strictly on visual, looks to be a decently made cartridge. However, after reading your follow up post I'd avoid it like the plague. Stunning information. Stating the obvious again, that cage should not crumble with finger/hand force.

Thanks again for follow up.

Sorry for your experience, and hoping no serious damage done.

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted by davison0976
6) Contact Fram and get them on the hook in case engine fails in the future.

I had decided against that before making the original post. They'll get an information to do their own damage control and will pin everything on the owner. They'll say their engineering department determined it was an owner mistake during an install. Companies do not admit any wrongdoing, you have to prove that beyond a reasonable doubt in the court of law. First an evidence of engine damage has to be presented. That doesn't exist as of now. Then a link between a missing plastic piece and engine damage has to be proven. When you add up time, money for certified experts etc that have to be involved, and even then there is no guarantee that anything can be prove, you would be able to buy at least 2 brand new engines.

So this illustrates your actual intent then. A reasonable person who has a legitmatge grievance first goes to the manufacturer rather than to a public Internet forum. Why? Because they are the only ones who can do anything about it, plus you at least give them the opportunity to correct a problem with their product. Whether they do anything or not is another subject, but at least you have done the right thing by reporting it to them.

Your statement above shows instead that you wished to create drama or had another agenda rather than being genuinely affected by a defective product. It makes it equally possible that you damaged the filter by another means just to make a public scene for whatever reason you may have.

You see, the real truth is that if you do have engine damage or failure you have no remedy by coming here. You would have had you contacted them, but we here on Bitog can do nothing to help in that regard.

 

[RD_3]

Everytime I've looked at the EG or TG I've never been impressed with them for our application. Both are made in China and seem cheap when compared to the Mopar. Just recently, the XG was introduced for our application of which I just installed one this past weekend.

I've got 12 OCI's under my belt with the van and have never had a failure with the 11 Mopar MO-744's I've handled. The reason for the switch to the XG was largely due to the synthetic media.

I hope everything goes well and you dont have a problem down the road. Thank you for the detailed pics.

 

[StevieC]

To the OP, the reason the filter design was changed isn't because the filter design was a problem, it's because they removed the Pressure relief spring setup from the middle of the filter tube area because these had a tendency to fly off while taking off the filters if you bumped it the wrong way.

This has happened to me on my dad's PentaStar with the older design. It can be put back together easily but when the spring goes flying it goes far.

I'm cautious of it now but that is the reason behind the filter design change was to incorporate this change as well as the addition of the O-ring/cage setup on the end of the new filter to keep the filter housing full of oil on shut-down to eliminate noise on start-up.

 

[ARCOgraphite]

OP: Contact Fram.

Otherwise - as others have stated - the intent of the post becomes a bit suspect.

Good info presented though, China plastic = typically terrible (cant count how many "premium" headphone parts have cracked in use)

For cost containment lots of filler and regrind is used in polymers. They surely went too far. Plus as an M.E. who has worked in mold design for precision high temp parts with complex melds, the internal cage design is poor just by eyeballing it..

Contact FRAM and keep us informed. That would be the most beneficial to all watching here.

 

[Job]

Excellent follow up. The cage material is inferior, as you stated in the initial post. Since you took a second new example and it was also defective, it isn't just a one off Chinese parts vendor saving money on materials problem. First they tried to say the filter was wrong even though you didn't say which car you have. But you did say you changed it 12 times. Good point on cage not twisting during install. I saw that too after posting and you also say in this case it isn't an issue with cap binding. No excuses for Fram this time. Good to use something else, not Made in China. The shop vac fine nozzle idea might be worth a try, should work unless the missing piece is wedged in.

 

[StevieC]

I should have also mentioned that I'm using the newer Pentastar filter in the Ultra Line from Fram and it's stamped "Made in Korea" on it. Similar plastic cage though.

 

[davison0976]

Thank you all who had genuinely responded with your words of support and understanding.

I wanted to dedicate this thread to other people like me who are curious to find the truth, who care about their vehicles, who work hard to have things in life and for whom a vehicle is a sizeable expense, a necessity and an object to be depended on. I couldn't had put this to rest just yet without doing a comparison to another known filter. I had a spare Mopar filter still boxed, and this is how it compares to Fram. More importantly, anyone willing to spend $20 can replicate these tests independently.

After conducting a comparative analysis it is clear to me that restrictive filter media and subpar internal plastic cage design can lead to breakage as a result of normal operating oil pressure inside the oil filter housing. And I used to prefer to get Fram for $2 to $3 more compared to Mopar at Walmart thinking I am getting a better quality. Silly me.

P.S. If you ever see a house built with joist placed flat it's the Fram engineers who built it! Utter Shame!

 

[davison0976]

Originally Posted by kschachn
Originally Posted by davison0976
6) Contact Fram and get them on the hook in case engine fails in the future.

I had decided against that before making the original post. They'll get an information to do their own damage control and will pin everything on the owner. They'll say their engineering department determined it was an owner mistake during an install. Companies do not admit any wrongdoing, you have to prove that beyond a reasonable doubt in the court of law. First an evidence of engine damage has to be presented. That doesn't exist as of now. Then a link between a missing plastic piece and engine damage has to be proven. When you add up time, money for certified experts etc that have to be involved, and even then there is no guarantee that anything can be prove, you would be able to buy at least 2 brand new engines.


So this illustrates your actual intent then. A reasonable person who has a legitmatge grievance first goes to the manufacturer rather than to a public Internet forum. Why? Because they are the only ones who can do anything about it, plus you at least give them the opportunity to correct a problem with their product. Whether they do anything or not is another subject, but at least you have done the right thing by reporting it to them.

Your statement above shows instead that you wished to create drama or had another agenda rather than being genuinely affected by a defective product. It makes it equally possible that you damaged the filter by another means just to make a public scene for whatever reason you may have.

You see, the real truth is that if you do have engine damage or failure you have no remedy by coming here. You would have had you contacted them, but we here on Bitog can do nothing to help in that regard.



It's called an asymmetric response and if you were ever an active or retired military officer you would know what that means. Yes, you want me to contact Fram so they can send me a field recovery kit and take the evidence out of my hands. Not so fast! I've always wondered about people on here with 10K+ posts. What damage control are you trying to do? What are you trying to cover up? How much are you being paid to do the trolling on here?

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted by StevieC
To the OP, the reason the filter design was changed isn't because the filter design was a problem, it's because they removed the Pressure relief spring setup from the middle of the filter tube area because these had a tendency to fly off while taking off the filters if you bumped it the wrong way.

This has happened to me on my dad's PentaStar with the older design. It can be put back together easily but when the spring goes flying it goes far.

I'm cautious of it now but that is the reason behind the filter design change was to incorporate this change as well as the addition of the O-ring/cage setup on the end of the new filter to keep the filter housing full of oil on shut-down to eliminate noise on start-up.

So after reading your post Stevie, and seeing that the filter looks bowed in from delta-p, I'm wondering if the filter bypass valve is missing or not functioning correctly, and that might have contributed to the failure. OP, sure, the plastic seems weaker than one would think, but if the filter is getting delta-p spikes much larger than normal with a good bypass valve, then that's something to think about. If these center tubes are that weak under normal use conditions I'd think others would see the same failure and report this to Fram. That's why you should call them and ask, and report what youve seen.

Your "twistng" test does not really simulate the forces on the filter from flow and delta-p. But yeah, the plastic cage seems weaker than one would expect. It's also possible a bad batch of center tubes were made along the line - lots of possible theories to the root cause(s).

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted by davison0976
Yes, you want me to contact Fram so they can send me a field recovery kit and take the evidence out of my hands.

He's not trolling you. Not one filter company will do anything for you under any circumstances without being given the opportunity to examine the filter as it was taken off the vehicle and before any tampering. You may look at is giving away evidence, but I have a proverb for this. Oil filter companies that give away oil filters, much less pay for damage, based upon a complaint they cannot verify have bigger holes in their heads than are in the centre tube of their filters.

And I've never used a Fram oil filter in my life.

 

[Sayjac]

Nice follow up comparison of the Mopar cartridge to the Fram. As it was apparently the point of failure or defect, I was most interested in the cage comparison. I note with the Mopar that it seems based on the picture that significant torque applied to it before it shattered. That as compared to the Fram which you noted broke with "finger"/hand force. Is that conclusion about right?

While the other factors like media compared may be contributory in some way, it's the cage that would give me the biggest pause about using the Fram.

As for coo, as opposed to spin on, many US based filter manufacturers have their cartridges made in China. Just the way it is. In this case, the US made Mopar the better cartridge. However, you did note the previous made in China Fram a different manufacturer/supplier and you encountered no similar to topic issues. So, it would seem end manufacturer and specification specific. I would note, the lettering type and color on the Mopar reminds me of the ACDelco Hengst US made Ecotec engine cartridges, and they were very high quality. However, Hengst did put their name on cartridge endcap too. I say "were" because newest ACD ecotec cartridge no longer have a Hengst ID or similar lettering and I'm not convinced they still make them.

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted by davison0976
It's called an asymmetric response and if you were ever an active or retired military officer you would know what that means. Yes, you want me to contact Fram so they can send me a field recovery kit and take the evidence out of my hands. Not so fast! I've always wondered about people on here with 10K+ posts. What damage control are you trying to do? What are you trying to cover up? How much are you being paid to do the trolling on here?

You can give it whatever name you wish, military or otherwise, but the fact remains that the manufacturer is the only one who can do anything about it regardless of your level of paranoia. So you want to keep in your hands? What good will that do? Who are you going to eventually report it to? The police? Local news? Why not the manufacturer who is responsible for it? Any way you slice it that makes the most sense, which maybe is the problem.

Talk about trolling. Your response only reinforces my notion that this is about drama and not about resolution. Oh and I don't use Fram filters either, II use OEM on all my vehicles. I wish I was getting paid by someone as I could use the extra money. I need a couple/four new cars.

 

[StevieC]

This is what the old PentaStar filter housing looks like with the spring relief in the middle. Just so everyone in the group understands.

This had a tendency to fly off and it's why they did away with it. The spring is inside the plastic part in the middle and the cap is what would let go and allow the spring to launch clear across the room.
(The OP's would be this type of filter housing)

This is what it looks like now:

 

[WobblyElvis]

This video was posted here on BITOG a few days ago and I didn't think much of it but perhaps it's relevant.

 

[Job]

Thanks OP for further follow up time and money, and presenting good honest facts comparing the filters. Maybe the filter housing can be removed to search for the missing piece or pieces or use the vacuum method, and hopefully find them.

 

[StevieC]

I just went back and looked at the lubrication routing and some of the oil after the filter goes to the cooler which is in the same assembly as the housing just under the plenum/intake. Some of the oil is routed to the main galleries so it's possible the chunk is stuck on its way to the cooler and might not have made it all the way down to the gallery feed. Problem is to take this off and look at it you have to remove the plenum, intake and drain the coolant. There is a good video on this if you are interested. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TwQgtIxZNA

Do you know what the oil pressure and temperatures are at full operating temperature? I can compare this to mine if you want to see if the blockage is affecting the cooler or oil pressure. The only thing we can't know is if it blocked one of the piston cooling jets which is also fed off the main gallery along with the crank bearings.

 

[ARCOgraphite]

The Mopar cage design has the the narrow end of the rib facing the media, that could lead to high unit pressure and tearing of filter media. - esp if the delta is enough to collapse the cage..

I would be nice if the manufacturers could employ a reusable St Steel centertube.
- But Then you would have to clean it in the parts washer ....Oh hum.

I like to see some proper crush and tensile tests with metrics.

A rigged up class two lever with hanging weights? Or pulled fish scale

anybody have an old T-O tester in their garage? KIPS anyone?

Ahh, brings back memories of half a century ago...

 

[ZeeOSix]

If the plastic cage is that fragile, maybe it broke or at least weakened/cracked some when initially installed if there is any kind of twisting. But the OP did say the center tube is "free floating", so the only way it could twist on installation is if the two end caps compressed while the canister cap was installed, and caused the center tube pinch between the end caps and get some twisting action. The best test to do is to install an new filter and remove to inspect for any center tube damage or failure. Repeat a number of times to see if installing the filter caused any damage to the center tube.

 

[kschachn]

The refusal by the poster to contact the manufacturer tells me that there is more to this story than meets the eye.