Thanks. I wonder if Honda ever had to replace a brand new engine due to a filter failure.
Fram bashers?
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I wonder why I can run my car without a filter and still have good results? so if a fram is bad, then why not pictures of a fram that is blown apart? I wonder, what is more important, a filter or oil in all the parts of a engine fast? do you have a picture of a fram that has been on your car that has been bad? I've yet to see one. I've taken a bunch of filters off and yet to see a fram bad. not saying they are not built cheap but I've yet to see any cause a problem. I will tell you I've seen amsoil filters fail, so is that a bad one as well? I think all fail at one time or another. As for racing, well, I belive that they have a higher oil presure than standard cars and such so is that a bad filter just because it cannot stand up to the pressure the race cars/bikes use? like he said, seems no one can afford a camera.
Just because an individual does not have a camera on hand at the time of the occurance does not make them a liar. I would bet if a person has the damaged filter in hand in front of ones face there would be other excuses why the FRAM filter gave out. You can't and refuse to face facts.
I have to agree to a point. Yes, very few people carry camaras 24/7, but they do have one at home. If a Fram was to blow apart on me (not that it ever will because I don't and won't use Fram oil filters) I would take a picture and mail it to Fram's PR department. No, this may not be on the side of the road, but I would keep the filter so I had evidence to show Fram when they asked.
Regardless, it is obvious Fram oil filters are inferior to most, if not all other brands on the market. The chance of the filter being well below industry standards is high. The chance of the oil bypassing the filter is good. The chance of the canister exploding in a daily driver is very low, but possible due to a thinner canister than most other filters.
Knowing all of this, if you want to use a Fram, use it. If you choose to use a competetors filter, spending a bit more (or in some cases, less) to have happy and secure feeling, then it is usually cheap insurance.
I will continue not to use Fram oil filters (I do use Fram air filters) and continue to advise other, uninformed DIY'ers, against the use of Fram oil filters. I will not push the subject.
I don't know of any warranty work ever being denied because of the use of a Fram filter. I don't know of any automotive manufacturers advising against the use of Fram filters. I have never heard of any lawsuits due to the failure of a Fram filter - and believe me, in todays world, somebody would be sueing somebody.
IMHO, oil filters should have to meet certain specs, such as ACEA or the idividual automotive manufacturers spec (Such as Ford's spec about the top end bypass valve). I imagine that if this happened, Fram would only be approved for use on Hondas and maybe Yugos.
At the risk of shooting a dead horse, here are some more pictures
http://www.widman.biz/Aplicaciones/Filters/filters.html
there is no way the perforated tub can seal against the shaft.
Every week someone comes in looking for the cause of noises for the first 15 to 20 seconds after starting, end it's always got a Fram on it. A simple filter change fixes the problem. How much damage is done in 5 or 6 dry starts a day, 350 days a year? I wouldn't invest in that study. When there are good alternatives at the same price, why waste the time?
http://www.widman.biz/Aplicaciones/Filters/filters.html
there is no way the perforated tub can seal against the shaft.
Every week someone comes in looking for the cause of noises for the first 15 to 20 seconds after starting, end it's always got a Fram on it. A simple filter change fixes the problem. How much damage is done in 5 or 6 dry starts a day, 350 days a year? I wouldn't invest in that study. When there are good alternatives at the same price, why waste the time?
Widman gave more evidence but, there will still be doubters. Got pictures for proof. Go ahead and try to disprove. Excuses, excuse- I waiting!
I seem to recall a TSB from Daimler-Chrysler about the use of Fram filters and failures with the Cummings Turbo Diesel. I'm sure if you did a search on this site this information could be found...and it would point to bad filter construction if I remember correctly. Sorry...I don't have any personal experience with filter failure.
There's no fire.
I don't need 145 pictures to hypothesis that if I have a choice between a timing gear machined from steel and one whittled from maple, I'll choose the steel.
If you're an engineer, you already understand that.
If you're suggesting that there is not a systemized study on Fram filters and failures or comparison between other brands of filters, you're right.
That doesn't render the maple gear a good choice.
Propflux01
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Seems to me after reading alot of threads on this forum about frams, alot of people on here still neglect to consider this:
Q: Does Fram meet an automotive 'guideline' for filtering ability?
A: Yes
Q Has a Fram filter ever failed?
A: Yes
Q: Has other branded filters failed?
A: Yes
Q: Would The Cheapest oil available that meets "Guidelines" for use in Todays engines cause engine failure?
A: Probably not
Q: Would that same oil, changed at the same interval that a 'better brand' oil was changed, on the same model engine, with the same driving habits, etc., allow that engine to last as long or longer than the engine with the 'better branded' oil?
A: probably not.
Q: Would a cheaper made filter, with the same conditions as the question above, allow the engine to live longer than one that used a better quality branded filter?
A: probably not.
Q: So would it make sense to pay a premium price, for a substandardly made filter, than one that would probably make that engine live longer, and cost less than that Fram?
A: probably not.
The question is not so much that the fram will fail and stop teh world from rotating, I think it is more of "why use a filter, that costs as much or more than another brand of filter who's construction is obviously better".
yes, that Fram will work. But I am willing to bet also that if an engine uses them, it will not give the service over it's entire life, that the use of a better quality filter would. Just the same as using that super cheap oil 'that meets API SL' will not give you the lifetime service that say, an engine using a 'better OTC' oil would. Another example is this, Buy a brand new Yugo (cut me a break, I know they are not made anymore, but used for example purposes) or a brand new Honda. Which one do you think would last longer with the same maintenance? I am betting the Honda. And I don't need pictures to prove that. My own eyes and word of mouth is proof enough....
Q: Does Fram meet an automotive 'guideline' for filtering ability?
A: Yes
Q Has a Fram filter ever failed?
A: Yes
Q: Has other branded filters failed?
A: Yes
Q: Would The Cheapest oil available that meets "Guidelines" for use in Todays engines cause engine failure?
A: Probably not
Q: Would that same oil, changed at the same interval that a 'better brand' oil was changed, on the same model engine, with the same driving habits, etc., allow that engine to last as long or longer than the engine with the 'better branded' oil?
A: probably not.
Q: Would a cheaper made filter, with the same conditions as the question above, allow the engine to live longer than one that used a better quality branded filter?
A: probably not.
Q: So would it make sense to pay a premium price, for a substandardly made filter, than one that would probably make that engine live longer, and cost less than that Fram?
A: probably not.
The question is not so much that the fram will fail and stop teh world from rotating, I think it is more of "why use a filter, that costs as much or more than another brand of filter who's construction is obviously better".
yes, that Fram will work. But I am willing to bet also that if an engine uses them, it will not give the service over it's entire life, that the use of a better quality filter would. Just the same as using that super cheap oil 'that meets API SL' will not give you the lifetime service that say, an engine using a 'better OTC' oil would. Another example is this, Buy a brand new Yugo (cut me a break, I know they are not made anymore, but used for example purposes) or a brand new Honda. Which one do you think would last longer with the same maintenance? I am betting the Honda. And I don't need pictures to prove that. My own eyes and word of mouth is proof enough....
I have seen on some of the posts that FRAM oil filters were banned in certain types of racing. Could anyone elaborate more and tell me if they are still banned, if so it what types of professional racing they are presently banned in?
I guess we can argue all day about the probability of cataclismic failure, internal breakdown, etc., but since it's hard to get conclusive evidence out in a forum like this, we'll probably leave everyone feeling frustrated.
Here's another dimension to the issue that bothers me: respect. Let's set aside for the moment the question of how likely it is that a Fram will actually fail in use. Instead, let's compare for a moment two filters, Fram and Bosch. I selected Bosch for comparison because it's a Champ labs product that takes some criticism, but it happens to be priced in most instances right around where the Frams come down.
I have dissected examples of both Fram and Bosch oil filters (in the long size that fits the Nissan/Infiniti VQ35DE V-6). The quality of every functional part of the inside of the Fram is clearly less than that of the Bosch. The Fram has the well-known cardboard end caps, flimsy medium, hand-crushable cap-medium combo, hand-breakable plastic bypass valve, thin rubber ADBV, etc. The Bosch has secure metal end caps and the medium glued well to the metal, all-metal bypass, heavier (yet still rubber) ADBV, etc.
Yet they cost almost exactly the same.
Even if some find it impossible to prove that Fram is more likely to fail, I will not use it because, frankly, it pi$$es me off that Allied Signal thinks it's perfectly OK to pass off a lesser product for the same price as better ones. They've made their plan for how to maximize their profit (obviously without any respect for either my intelligence or my car's engine). I have made my plan for how to take care of my car, and it's doesn't include Fram products.
Here's another dimension to the issue that bothers me: respect. Let's set aside for the moment the question of how likely it is that a Fram will actually fail in use. Instead, let's compare for a moment two filters, Fram and Bosch. I selected Bosch for comparison because it's a Champ labs product that takes some criticism, but it happens to be priced in most instances right around where the Frams come down.
I have dissected examples of both Fram and Bosch oil filters (in the long size that fits the Nissan/Infiniti VQ35DE V-6). The quality of every functional part of the inside of the Fram is clearly less than that of the Bosch. The Fram has the well-known cardboard end caps, flimsy medium, hand-crushable cap-medium combo, hand-breakable plastic bypass valve, thin rubber ADBV, etc. The Bosch has secure metal end caps and the medium glued well to the metal, all-metal bypass, heavier (yet still rubber) ADBV, etc.
Yet they cost almost exactly the same.
Even if some find it impossible to prove that Fram is more likely to fail, I will not use it because, frankly, it pi$$es me off that Allied Signal thinks it's perfectly OK to pass off a lesser product for the same price as better ones. They've made their plan for how to maximize their profit (obviously without any respect for either my intelligence or my car's engine). I have made my plan for how to take care of my car, and it's doesn't include Fram products.
When was the last time that anyone saw an OIL filter cause an engine to "run very rough"??????
I do believe y'all bleed orange. [/QB][/QUOTE]
I was the one who saw my car running rough at startup and for an hour after that. First time I had ever used a fram while still using the same brand 5W30 I've been using. The only thing diffrent was the fram filter. It was bad enough that I did my next oil change at 100 miles and used 5 new quarts or oil and my regular K&N. Roughness gone. Problem solved. Fram sucked in my car, and I'm sure it has sucked in other peoples cars.
I do believe y'all bleed orange. [/QB][/QUOTE]
I was the one who saw my car running rough at startup and for an hour after that. First time I had ever used a fram while still using the same brand 5W30 I've been using. The only thing diffrent was the fram filter. It was bad enough that I did my next oil change at 100 miles and used 5 new quarts or oil and my regular K&N. Roughness gone. Problem solved. Fram sucked in my car, and I'm sure it has sucked in other peoples cars.
I've personally had several Fram oil filters fail over the years (and one air filter). In each case the internal components dislodged or collapsed. This was directly observable upon removal of the filter.
No engine died directly and exclusively from this failure. Not surprising, as the oil passages would not allow the large filter components to enter the engine. All that resulted was lack of filtration and some possible flow restriction.
While no engine died as a result of this, I find internal filter failures to be unacceptable to me. And seeing as how the only filters I've ever had fail in such a manner have been Fram, I chose to no longer run Fram filters.
I just cut my last X2 open to see for myself what's inside. Keep hearing "Fram has cardboard endcaps"...my conclusion on that is bunk. They were metal ...so I conclude that we someone says..."ya but Fram has cardboard"..not all Fram is equal....
Next on to the ABV thingy...It seemed like an orange rubber that when hot oil hit it would simply collapse....
Can't see how the case would explode or blow a rubber seal or for that matter the media could collapse...but rest assured....I have done my research and conclude that my cars will be seeing AC-Delco from now on...
After I my next oil change I am going to cut one of those up and compare....
My conclusion...some frams are cheap junk the more expensive are "better". That said, I seem to be able to find that "better" quality for a cheaper price....don'thave to spend $10 on a filter ...I can spend $5 and get better quality...
But all the horrendous stories about Frams..."my wife left me cause I used Fram filters" etc are just that puffery....I like the person that said we should have it documented some where on all the fram failures...
Also I'd like someone from Fram to jump on this forum and defend their product....
Next on to the ABV thingy...It seemed like an orange rubber that when hot oil hit it would simply collapse....
Can't see how the case would explode or blow a rubber seal or for that matter the media could collapse...but rest assured....I have done my research and conclude that my cars will be seeing AC-Delco from now on...
After I my next oil change I am going to cut one of those up and compare....
My conclusion...some frams are cheap junk the more expensive are "better". That said, I seem to be able to find that "better" quality for a cheaper price....don'thave to spend $10 on a filter ...I can spend $5 and get better quality...
But all the horrendous stories about Frams..."my wife left me cause I used Fram filters" etc are just that puffery....I like the person that said we should have it documented some where on all the fram failures...
Also I'd like someone from Fram to jump on this forum and defend their product....
The Fram X2 is a decent filter, but for the same price you can get a K&N or an M1, so again, the choice is obvious. All the other Frams are junk.
Tony,
"Bunk"? You have to read more before you make blanket statements like that, especially here of all places. Please look at the various dissection photos located all over the place. The Fram Extra Guard has the cardboard end caps. That is the Fram's bread and butter. All the other oil filters sold by Fram are bascially boutique filters that don't equal 1/50th of Extra Guard sales. So when you hear Fram's have cardboard endcaps - they do and they're junk.
[ December 21, 2004, 05:13 PM: Message edited by: cos ]
"Bunk"? You have to read more before you make blanket statements like that, especially here of all places. Please look at the various dissection photos located all over the place. The Fram Extra Guard has the cardboard end caps. That is the Fram's bread and butter. All the other oil filters sold by Fram are bascially boutique filters that don't equal 1/50th of Extra Guard sales. So when you hear Fram's have cardboard endcaps - they do and they're junk.
[ December 21, 2004, 05:13 PM: Message edited by: cos ]
The X2 (I believe it has also been sold as an "XG") is metal end-capped. Fram has an amusing story about why this model differs from the rest of their glued cardboard models.
It also has a silicone anti-drain back valve and Teflon-coated exterior gasket.
Of course, for what it sells for it ought to have metal endcaps and a decent valve and gasket.
So, if you pay 2x or 3x over the average oil filter by Champion, Purolator, Wix, or Denso you get the construction of the Champion, Purolator, Wix, or Denso.
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