Fram bashers?

[2000sunfire]

Hey. I've seen the filter tear down test website and understand why there's all the fuss about fram. Fram are NOT up to par with the other filters but maybe they are good enough for some things (i.e. a fram is plenty good but a better filter is plain overkill)

I wanna hear stories from people who've seen engine damage first hand that was directly Fram filter related.

My room mate uses Candian Tire brand filters (relabeled frams) and he has 350k on his 97 Camry and it still runs like a top.

 

[satterfi]

I used relabeled Frams on my '88 Honda for years. Yep, it still runs fine.

I'd use a Fram before Supertech based on my limited surgery of both.

 

[ruking77]

This might be like cursing in "church", but do you think it odd that almost no one has submitted or conducted VOA and UOA's where the only variable is a (blind) filter comparo test!?

Instead, the so called "quality" of construction has been analyzed. While you can imply or make judgements based on real or perceived quality, this really tells you little of the statistical significance of its filtering ability.

So for example, does a Mobil One filter (fine fine filter by the way) at 10 dollars filter 5 times better than a 2 dollar WallyMarty Supertech(ie)? If it does, how is it statistically significant? Does it let you change (in my case) from 15,000 to 75,000 miles between filter changes? Does it make the UOA's cleaner? Etc etc.

Another for example, I ran a 1987 TLC for app 250,000 miles when Fram PH8A filters were like 2 filters for 4-5 dollars or 2-2.5 dollars each. I ran Mobil One 5-10w30 oils. Changed oil every 15,000 miles (or so). Since this was used in business daily use weekend use, different drivers, the local Toyota dealer mechanics did the major maintenance: i.e., adjusted the valves app 16-17 times. They always remarked at how clean the innards were!!!But more importantly innards were hardly worn at all!!!


..."I wanna hear stories from people who've seen engine damage first hand that was directly Fram filter related."...

So trust me, I would be the first to pitch a fit if your quote were true.


So if I am seen as "aiding and abetting heresy "

Not much is said about PREOILERS. They are acknowledge to practically eliminate cold start wear, which is surmized by industry experts and pre oiler marketing folks

to be 50-80% of all engine wear.

[ December 12, 2004, 07:49 PM: Message edited by: ruking77 ]

 

[tom slick]

why spend more on a filter that is built as cheap as possible but not sold as cheap as possible?
why does a $1.99 STP/supertech filter have "overkill" parts in it but is still 1/3 the cost of a fram that is made of parts that are "good enough"?

frams may be decent filters but you are just adding extra padding to their wallets by buying them. you are not gaining any benefit by spending more for them.

 

[sbc350gearhead]

This has been talked about in depth many times. Try a search. If you read all that has been posted, and still want to use fram oil filters, then by all means, go for it.

 

[medic]

Okay, you have a choice:

A used Yugo in great shape - $2000
A used Volvo in great shape - $2000

Both of these cars are identical in mileage, condition, etc...

Which one do you buy?

Volvo has always been known for their saftey, but if you don't wreck every car you own, then all of that saftey junk is overkill and really not needed, so go buy the overpriced Yugo.

This is why I don't use Fram's oil filters and American Castrol Syntec. If I can get a superior product for the same low price, even if I don't think I need it, I'm gonna buy it. Simple - the informed American way of buying.

I'm also assuming your room mate changes his oil at 3k OCI or equivlant. This is also overkill. Why use an overkill method with your OCI, but not your filter?

 

[John K]

Back in 1987 Consumer Reports tested oils and filters and rated Fram as the best filter. Their tests used Arizona road dust present in a known concentration and distribution of different sized grit particles. They counted the particles (with a lab particle counter) at various times before and after the filter. (It is difficult for an individual to dedicate the resources to test filters, and I don't think a regular oil analyis will detect a difference.)

On the other hand, one of the sites that has documented filter construction was motivated by an engine failure when a Fram came apart. They are cheaply made, and many report valve train noise during start up due to the poor anti drain back valves. Seems the Frams do the job of filtering but you run the risk of failure with them. I guess the question is how big is the risk? They have the cheapest construction but not the lowest price......

 

[2000sunfire]

Okay to clear up one of two things:

For interest sake my own car is sitting in the parking lot wearing a NAPA Gold filter and filled with Motomaster Formula One Conventional. When I go home from university at the end of the week it's getting a new NAPA Gold and Mobile 1 full synthetic 5W30. This will be when the present oil and filter have about 4000-4500 kilometers on them.

Room mate's car does get regular changes, but I'm not sure exactly what.

In New Brunswick the Candian Tire relabeled fram IS the cheapest filter I can find at about 3.50$. The reason I started this tread is I change oil for friends because I want ot save them money over quick lube places (I've never seen a 20$ oil change place yet that stuck to their price) and was wondering if the candian tire filters could save my friends a few dollars. Also can anyone care to recommend a cheap budget oil to use in my friend's cars, something available at Candian Tire or Canadian Walmarts?

 

[ekpolk]

quote:

---

Originally posted by satterfi:
I used relabeled Frams on my '88 Honda for years. Yep, it still runs fine.

I'd use a Fram before Supertech based on my limited surgery of both.

---

On what basis, specifically?

I have completely dissected both Frams and several Champ labs filters (ST is one of those), and from what I've seen, the CL products are better assembled in every observable way. Sure, it does not appear that Frams are blowing up right and left, but when they're essentially the same price, or within a few dollars, I can't see any reason to choose Fram over the better, perhaps overbuilt, products. If you saved significant money with Fram, maybe I could see it, but you don't.

 

[sxg6]

well said medic!

 

[1kickbuttranger]

I personally haven't had any issues with them, but I have seen first hand a 5.0 GT with one that after a month of service there was horrible start up noise every morning, and when the Fram was removed, the internals had collapsed. Replacing the filter solved that problem. So all this time the "guts" were collapsed, there was no oil retention and no filteration.

In Frams defense on this though, it was 20w-50 and there were many cold WOT take-offs.

 

[AstroVic]

Nobody is telling you not to use a Fram oil filter! I think you should use them in all of your cars! They're "just good enough."

I will use Motorcraft, Wix, Baldwin, or SuperTech.

 

[michaelc80]

I guess I have no problem spending a couple of extra bucks to protect my investment. Given the well documented low quality construction of Fram filters, and given the alternatives that are available, if you want to use Fram, by all means do so. If all of the information on this site won't convince you not to, then nothing will.

 

[Bror Jace]

Yep, I don't buy Frams just on principle. They aren't the least expensive, but they ARE the cheapest!

--- Bror Jace

[ December 13, 2004, 05:19 PM: Message edited by: sbc350gearhead ]

 

[ekpolk]

quote:

---

Originally posted by 1kickbuttranger:
I personally haven't had any issues with them, but I have seen first hand a 5.0 GT with one that after a month of service there was horrible start up noise every morning, and when the Fram was removed, the internals had collapsed. Replacing the filter solved that problem. So all this time the "guts" were collapsed, there was no oil retention and no filteration.

In Frams defense on this though, it was 20w-50 and there were many cold WOT take-offs.

---

Well to heck with Fram. If an M1 (or other Champ labs filter), had been subjected to such treatment, it's far less likely that it would have collapsed at all. Its filter element is very solidly glued into rigid steel end plates, which are, in turn, firmly attached to the center tube. I have easily destroyed a Fram's element with my bare hands; this is utterly impossible with a Champ labs product.

 

[Spector]

The line about the 1987 Consumer reports article, well, the fram name has been sold how many times since then Like LAwn Boy and multiple other products, the new owners captured a brand name and with huge marketing budgets and shelf space, lived off of it for years with low quality; most people just assume nothing has changed inside.

However, IMO if you change your oil every 3000 miles it will make no difference what you use for oil or filter, the engine will outlast the rest of the car.

Now if you go 7-10,000 miles between filter changes yea, maybe not in filtering ability but I prefer construction that will hold up, the filtering ability IMO doesn't really make much diff but since I have to use a filter and I choose to do so for 7000 miles I go with construction.

 

[T-Keith]

Is the Fram "good enough"?

Even if it was there are cheaper filters that are "good enough" also, why pay EXTRA money for good enough?

Are there any actual problems or are other filter simply overkill?

There are certainly failures. I’ve seen many startup ticking be solved by switching to a non Fram filter and plenty of noises start after installing one.
Here's a pic of a failed Fram ADBV, they use this same design on ALL their filters.

-T

 

[Flimflam]

Look, sunfire. A filter is a very inexpensive part. I mean, compared to the cost of an engine replacement. Why risk it?

Back in 1995, when I was driving a Ford Bronco 351 v-8, I used Fram's. But that was because I didn't know any better, and it was an old beater Ford, anyway, and I was prepared to walk away from it any day, any time.

Now, I drive a decent import, so I use OEM imported filters from the Dealership. Sure, using Fram's would save me $10-$20 a year, but my motor is worth much more to me than the $10-$20 I would save.

 

[Flimflam]

quote:

---

Originally posted by T-Keith:
Is the Fram "good enough"?

(some deleted.....)

There are certainly failures. I’ve seen many startup ticking be solved by switching to a non Fram filter and plenty of noises start after installing one.
Here's a pic of a failed Fram ADBV, they use this same design on ALL their filters.


-T

---

To be fair to Fram, even though I never buy/use them any more: When I used Fram's in my old beater Ford 351 v-8, I never had any funny or weird noises on startup. I had quiet, smooth startups, with cylinders firing first try every time, even in the coldest New York winters (I lived, worked in NY then). Maybe it was because I used Castrol HD-30 monograde dino exclusively. That stuff was so thick, a lot of it must have stayed in the rocker arm/valve train area instead of draining back down into the sump.

 

[medic]

quote:

---

Originally posted by T-Keith:
There are certainly failures. I’ve seen many startup ticking be solved by switching to a non Fram filter and plenty of noises start after installing one.
Here's a pic of a failed Fram ADBV, they use this same design on ALL their filters.

-T

---

I quit using Fram's filter before I found BITOG. My truck experienced very noisy ticking upon start-up with a Fram. I found that many people on F150 boards used Motorcraft filters due to a superior ADBV. This is when I began to examine filters. I found that the filter Fram makes for my truck doesn't even have an ADBV. I guess I don't have to worry about if failing if it isn't even there?

Yes, I am a reformed Fram user.