Forum clean language rules

[goblin]

While the thread about what words are forbidden in the forum is (as expected) no more, it did bring a question that I would like to reiterate.
My comments below are about the following quote:

Clean language is seriously a kind of ethos on the site. Finding ways around the naughty word filters will just get you yelled at and eventually shown the door.

I disagree about the position that this site simply follows the standards of clean language.

The standards followed here are at Sunday school Tom Sawyer <> aunt Polly level, with specifics that are very, very far from common language of today's day and age. I am not talking common slang but even newsreel, government official level.

Most of today's politicians and public personalities might pass this site's language standards - barely - in an official speech, but will fail in a formal interview with established news outlets. That's how strict it is.

That the abbreviation of the name Richard, or a beaver dam with an n at the end, would be filtered, is beyond comprehensible. And those are only a few examples that come to mind, there's a lot more.

I would very much like to see an official list - this is not to circumvent the rules, but to simply figure out what the rules are.

My guess is this site's language follows some church/religion level language standards - which is all good and great, but members can NOT be expected to know it and guess it. Some guidance would be welcome.

I am not criticizing - I am genuinely asking, as this forum is visited by people from all over the world, many of them are not native English speakers - if locals are managing to hit the barriers and have seemingly normal words asterisked, then what's left for people from elsewhere...

 

[Astro14]

If you’re genuinely asking, then look at it this way. “What would I say to my six year old?” “What vocabulary would I like them to employ?”

You’re right that we don’t tell you the words you can’t use, because, obviously that requires us publishing the list, and doing the very thing we prohibit, but if you find that the word censor takes out a word, then you know - don’t use that word.

Your argument that this is based in religion, and it is far away from common vernacular, simply doesn’t fly. The site owner has said, family friendly, and polite.

There are no religious overtones to this, but it may be a higher standard of behavior than many folks are used to. The inability to express oneself without the use of profanity is a sign of weak vocabulary. Some folks may need to work on that.

I think I would avoid holding up public officials as models of either behavior or vocabulary.

One slip up isn’t gonna get you in trouble.

Deliberate, repeated, offenses will.

 

[dnewton3]

I would very much like to see an official list - this is not to circumvent the rules, but to simply figure out what the rules are.

That cannot happen for a few reasons.
- we will not publish a list of illicit words; that would be hypocritical
- the list would not be able to be seen, as the automated filter would blank them out

My guess is this site's language follows some church/religion level language standards - which is all good and great ...

Profane language is not unique to any one religion, or lack thereof. Our standard is not set by a religious sect. Some profane words/phrases are unique to certain languages or regional locations.

... but members can NOT be expected to know it and guess it. Some guidance would be welcome.

There actually is some good, detailed guidance; see the Standard of Conduct. It states that if you type in your post and use the "preview" function, it will catch illicit words which are programmed into the automated filter. However, in this ever-changing world, we cannot keep up with the nuances of innuendo, etc. So one most certainly does have the ability to get an idea of the expectations, if they use the tool properly before formally posting.

I am genuinely asking, as this forum is visited by people from all over the world, many of them are not native English speakers - if locals are managing to hit the barriers and have seemingly normal words asterisked, then what's left for people from elsewhere...

The fact we do indeed have visitors is one of several reasons we have a very high standard for language. Also, there are no visitors that can post here; you have to be a member to post. Which also means you should have read the rules and policies; which abiding agreement is a condition upon joining.



The bottom line is that pretty much everyone knows when they intend to cross a line. Most do it out of habit; they forget about our high standard. When folks try to cheat the system intentionally (misspelling the profanity, or using other work-arounds), then they are by the very nature of the obfuscation admitting that they know they are doing wrong. They just want to get around the rules rather than obey them.

The VAST majority of folks here get it; they understand and obey. Those that don't learn quickly, one way or another.

 

[AZjeff]

It's hardly the end of the world if the filter ####s the abbr. for Richard or dam with an en is it? The filter doesn't know context. Write what you want and let the filter do what it does, what the ####ed word is is usually obvious.

I look at it this way, nobody is offended if someone doesn't drop a curse word in every sentence but the same can't be said if someone does. I appreciate this site, I grew up in a home where profane language was never used and at 68 I cringe when I hear what people say in public. Plus I figure if someone spent 30 years in the Navy and can keep their language clean how hard can it be? Looking @Astro14

There are millions of sites where people can curse and insult others to their heart's content. Appreciate how it is here.

 

[Hall]

The inability to express oneself without the use of profanity is a sign of weak vocabulary. Some folks may need to work on that.

I'm 100% confident that I don't have a "weak" vocabulary and including a curse word here or there doesn't change that. I've just learned to be more puritan here.

 

[2005jettatdi]

I look at it this way, nobody is offended if someone doesn't drop a curse word in every sentence but the same can't be said if someone does. I appreciate this site, I grew up in a home where profane language was never used and at 68 I cringe when I hear what people say in public.

I keep explaining this to employees at the brewery I somehow got stuck with. They tell me it is a bar, people accept swearing. That is when I tell them no one complains when you do not swear.

I am fine with language restrictions on this site.

 

[fdcg27]

I can't see maintaining a level of decorum on this site as a problem.
It's actually rather refreshing.
People in general have gotten too profane in common discourse.

 

[goblin]

I am indeed genuinely asking. I asked about the religious part because some filtering is at that level, so I was wondering what the reason might be. As for how I'd speak to a six years old - as good as the forum is, I wouldn't read from it to my six years old before sleep .

Same for the "list" part. The reason for asking was that when one seemingly innocent word is filtered because it can be a vaguely curse word in some context - a normal reaction is not to concentrate on that word, but to think along the lines of "if this is being filtered at that level - what else is ?".
There are several classifications to offensive language throughout the world, with sometimes very clear definitions and ratings. My question was mostly - does something similar apply here, specifically. Apparently not.

And by visitors from overseas I indeed meant subscribed members from overseas. Visitors in the sense of guests. This is a privately owned platform, most of us are guests here, and to abide by the rules we have to know what they are.

Anyhow. Thanks for the info.

 

[Speedy3861]

Common sense and common courtesy aren't common anymore. If you cannot express yourself without profanity, there's not much i want to hear that I'll listen to or respond.

 

[slo town]

A couple of months ago there was a great post about how AI is influencing internet search results. The "intelligence" of AI is so powerful that even sentence structure and grammar are considered when search results are chosen and listed (by AI).

Rampant cursing, bad spelling, bad grammar, and poor sentence structure in threads/posts are considered before AI returns a list of search results.

The fact that BITOG is "clean" legitimizes BITOG, which ups its "priority" in the search results.

I may be wording this wrong, but BITOG is a business. BITOG requires people and hosting resources (computers). These things aren't free. If BITOG didn't enforce the rules, internet searches would avoid us and probably put BITOG out of business.

Perhaps one of the moderators could repost the thread I mentioned above. If nothing else, it is an eye opening and interesting illustration of the power of the internet (and AI) - like it or not.

I'm sure you'll find your groove here. I've been a BITOG member about 15 years. The rules were more lax in the "old days". Cursing was always verboten, but 15 years ago online "fights" on this forum were more common than they are now. Even though I never participated in them, I didn't even like being witness to them.

I'm a major Type A personality. I like the relative "sereness" of BITOG. If I want to get myself riled up all I need to do is turn on the news. When I sign in on BITOG, I'm looking for an escape from that world.

I'm not throwing stones at you @goblin. Stick around, play by the rules, and I think you find BITOG a nice place to chill and escape the craziness.

Regards,

Scott

 

[SC Maintenance]

I am one to use every cuss word in the book, and some I made up myself. Having said that I never put them in writing. I like the filters.

 

[wwillson]

If we allowed use of foul language, how would it benefit this site?

 

[goblin]

Common sense and common courtesy aren't common anymore. If you cannot express yourself without profanity, there's not much i want to hear that I'll listen to or respond.

I wholeheartedly agree.

Please, ALL, do understand - I am not asking why I can not curse or use profanity here - I don't want it, I don't need it. On the contrary - I was commenting on the fact that filtering would kick at verbiage that doesn't raise any eyebrows in regular spoken language, and has to be explicitly targeted to a specific context to become profanity or cursing.

The whole point of my comment (which was a specific reaction to a comment in another thread) was that the filtering here seems to hit way before profanity is even hinted at or thought of, which automatically brings the reaction of wondering what else is prohibited.

In short - for the uninitiated, it sometimes feel like, say, this imaginary situation:

- You get off from the couch, you are not even fully up yet, and you hit your head on something hanging above you.
- It is very possible that you hit your head on that one, lonely, low hanging lampshade. But because it's dark - your reaction is "Well, the ceiling here is very, very low. I wasn't even up, and I hit my head. And yet - I'm not trying to walk on stilts or anything, I was just getting up. Interesting".
- I was asking for a lightswitch, is all

 

[burbguy82]

Normal language does not mean it is good. I commend those who run this ship, because they stick to the spirit of the rules. You know what "bad" means. Being disingenuous with language is silly.

Bad = bad, its that simple.

 

[burbguy82]

There are several classifications to offensive language throughout the world

Disagree. Telling someone where they can go, or flipping the bird is pretty universal........and I am pretty sure i did not break the rules with this post?

Offensive language here usually starts with someone asking "what is the best motor oil" or "thin oil is better than thick oil"

.

 

[zrxkawboy]

I remember one confusing time when the commonly-used term for a radiator drain valve was censored.

 

[goblin]

Disagree. Telling someone where they can go, or flipping the bird is pretty universal........and I am pretty sure i did not break the rules with this post?

Offensive language here usually starts with someone asking "what is the best motor oil" or "thin oil is better than thick oil"

.

We are talking about something absolutely different. I don't want to turn in circles, I will try to re-explain my position, as if it was misunderstood - it would mean I didn't explain it well.

- Once again - I am not discussing, advocating for, demanding, the ability to use profanity or offensive language.
- I am discussing how sensitive the bar is for what qualifies as offensive language and profanity, and the effect it can have on how users that are not too familiar with the forum can percieve this.
- By "There are several classifications to offensive language throughout the world" I didn't mean "cultural differences". An insult is an insult. If needed, one can insult others in the most polite and safe language imaginable.

What I meant was - there are precise, existing, official norms - usually in media and entertainment - that regulate (or try to, with various success) what qualifies sa profanity, and what doesn't.
Examples: movie ratings - PG-13, M, etc. etc. AP Styleguide or New York Times Manual for journalism. FCC (mild, moderate, strong, etc).

I remember one confusing time when the commonly-used term for a radiator drain valve was censored.

You just threw me down a deep rabbit hole, as the Preview function seems to agree that the commonly used term for male chicken / rooster is just fine, while the short for Richard (even when starting with uppercase) is not

This perfectly illustrates why I started the discussion in the first place: when I realize that "Short for Richard" gets asterisked, my automatic reaction is to assume that "The other word for rooster" will be automatically off limits too.
Turns out it is not.

 

[burbguy82]

We are talking about something absolutely different. I don't want to turn in circles, I will try to re-explain my position, as if it was misunderstood - it would mean I didn't explain it well.

- Once again - I am not discussing, advocating for, demanding, the ability to use profanity or offensive language.
- I am discussing how sensitive the bar is for what qualifies as offensive language and profanity, and the effect it can have on how users that are not too familiar with the forum can percieve this.
- By "There are several classifications to offensive language throughout the world" I didn't mean "cultural differences". An insult is an insult. If needed, one can insult others in the most polite and safe language imaginable.

What I meant was - there are precise, existing, official norms - usually in media and entertainment - that regulate (or try to, with various success) to clearly define what qualifies sa profanity, and what doesn't. Examples: movie ratings - PG-13, M, etc. etc. AP Styleguide or New York Times Manual for journalism. FCC (mild, moderate, strong, etc).

I see.

So, I have in private, asked as similar question to admin, after a few instances of my own........you are not the only one who have had stuff bleeped or deleted, FYI.

I would say that the bar is quite high, for the standards of internet language.....and the reason is simple, how I understand. Any language or offending topic that is "bad" and left unchecked will foster a conversation.......very quickly......to go in the wrong direction. If the operational tempo of this site sways even for a moment, then all upon a sudden, there will be cussing and nude pics and the like, real quick. Mob mentality thing. High school locker room mode. Neither of which gives the site any benefit.

Just like when you meet a new person and they drop an fbomb..............from then on, the climate is set with that person. Simply, I think they dont want that climate. Keep it PG 13, and present your facts in crayon and concrete You will still get flack, but will not be executed.=good.

You know what the spirit of the rules are.

 

[eljefino]

Until not too long ago there was actually a cuss word filter that would redact words into [censored]. One could watch some George Carlin videos (his seven words not suitable for TV were all on the list) and post a dictionary of usual suspects to a test forum to confirm they were verboten.

Then for whatever reason we were suddenly considered adults and 99% of people actually behave, so good for us!

 

[zrxkawboy]

You just threw me down a deep rabbit hole, as the Preview function seems to agree that the commonly used term for male chicken / rooster is just fine, while the short for Richard (even when starting with uppercase) is not

Th "rooster" thing happened a long time ago...glad to hear that has changed.