Forgive me but .....

[Gary Allan]

I decided to post this because I find a recurring theme, almost uniformly, thoroughout the forum on drain intervals.

I've found that instead of the experts here establishing superior performance lubrication techniques and proceedures,....I've found more ways to spend money. I've viewed intense analysis of POA ..esters ...multi synthisized chain molecules, parafin ...yadayada .....ALL TO WHAT AVAIL?

I've found people who, with oil analysis, use Mobil 1 on a 3 month/3000 mile interval. In fact, I find that virtually everyone here appears to cling to the oil company's prefered rhetorical 3/3k interval, regardless of which oil product or filtration media is in use, ...and ABSOLUTELY REFUSES to even give one bit of credence to the manufacturers (auto) recommendations. Now I've learned long ago ..never get in the way of people parting with their money (ask Jack N. said in Batman, "Never rub another man's ruebarb")..but I've gotta get a rational explanation for the apparent "chicken little - the sky is falling" type apprehension that seems to have all of you in its grip.

Does anyone here actually believe that extended drains are possible? Without negative side effects that are not outweighed by incurred costs? or ...can anyone here say that they are redeeming any future "new avoided costs" by spending the amount that they are in excess of "normal" oil changes (the typical dino 3 month/3k oil change offered everywhere for $20-30).

Now I know that you could just say "Hey, if you don't like it take a hike" and flame may be my reward for asking these questions...but first realize that I have a smile on my face when I'm typing this post ...and perhaps pause for a moment and just try and explain to me why you would spend an extra $1000 on a car that will give you no better service before it becomes otherwise worn out or obsolete (you'll be getting rid of it) before any payback for such extreme observance of your abreviated maintenance schedules?

What makes you look at 5000+(7500-10000-whatever) as "Oh(eyebrow knitted in worry), I don't think I dare stetch it that far (sense of doom closing in)"???

Let me word this another way.

Oils have advance great leaps since 1973-74 where the API relutantly gave their ?? rating for the very hot engines of those years. The advance between then and not is tremendous.

...yet most of you are still adhering to that era's schedules.

Why?

[ January 08, 2003, 02:01 AM: Message edited by: Gary Allan ]

 

[mkosem]

um, perhaps you should read a bit more. There are TONS of people running extended drain intervals on this site.

--Matt

 

[G-MAN]

Are you reading the same forum that I am? Take a look at the UOA board and you'll see plenty of folks who routinely take their oils beyond 3000 miles.

 

[Gary Allan]

Well, it depends on what you call extended drain intervals. Our auto manufacturers are going (virtually all) over 6000 miles and many much higher. Yet I sense fear from those on the board to even think that this is possible, let alone sensible.

I myself, with a well assured (in my own mind, of course) safety margin, do bi-annual oil changes (which works out to around 7500) without concern. I've always had conficence in synthetics and have never had bad results with them.

 

[mkosem]

ok, still, there are plenty of people running their oil longer than 6000 miles. What are you basing your idea that no one is running extended drains on?

--Matt

 

[Patman]

I've been running 5-6k intervals on my mom's Probe since 1994, did it on my sister's 95 Escort GT too (which became mine two years later and I drove it two years) and I do 5-6k intervals on my wife's 2000 Civic too. All of these were done with Mobil 1. I'm also at the beginning of a very long interval planned for my 95 Firebird, where I don't plan on changing the oil until the analysis reveals that the oil is no longer suitable. After this test I will probably go with 9k intervals (on Schaeffer Supreme blend) I'm also going to do the long interval on my wife's car after her current 5k interval is up, this is the first interval for her car running Royal Purple (second interval is safer for super long intervals than the first would be)

I'm one of the biggest haters of the 3k interval you'll find on here. I think it's totally unecessary, especially with synthetics.

 

[joee12]

Gary, I think that you have to remember that most manufacturers have both a "severe" and "normal" driving condition schedule in their owners manuals. The average severe schedule is 3-4k and the average "normal" is usually 5-7k. Most people fall under the severe schedule, especially many of us on this board that tow, drag race, track race, off-road, etc. I am personally am experimenting with an extended drain interval in my Acura Integra, which I rev the crap out of drive it like it was stolen. I plan on running a 6000 mile interval on my current oil, when in the past(before I discovered this board) I always changed at 3000 miles. -Joe

[ January 08, 2003, 06:16 AM: Message edited by: joee12 ]

 

[dragboat]

Quote:
"Oils have advance great leaps since 1973-74 where the API relutantly gave their ?? rating for the very hot engines of those years. The advance between then and not is tremendous.

...yet most of you are still adhering to that era's schedules.

Why?"

Gary there in part is where you miss the mark. Even steven on oils that are better and modern fuel injection that allows this " extended drain" capability. Those old cars with carbs would kill a oil quick in some situations,the choke set to hard,the choke pull off not functioning ect.Even today some engines and how they are driven might demand a 3 month interval regardless of miles,my mothers car is a prime example during winter months,thats one reason I am so interested in Castrols new 5/30 Elixion HD oil.I should have Synergyns additive in it but I am not so I can see what a neat dino i have found is cpable of on it's own.Some FI systems enrichen the circuit either too much or too long imo on certain models and designs and this needs taken into account.
Dino or synthetic it still depends on the engine design,the engine condition and the driving habits /where the car lives ect as to how many miles a car can be ran on a interval.Some of these new breed oil killers would not last long running a dino to the owners manual recommendations here in Oklahoma . Our Commuter says ok for 7500 miles in normal conditions with a dino,yeah right! Summer heat here will not allow a motor to cool quickly. Two hours after shut down the engines are very hot so in a OHC motor the oils is setting in the lifter buckets getting cooked while not running somewhat still in service. I have a new breed oil killer" the commuter" with a 3 quart sump and I am hoping for 5k drains in summer months to be allowed with a synlube through analysis which imo is a great tool for some not all engines and driving styles even though this motor is not highly stressed to get onto the freeway smoothly w/o gas pedal to the floor type driving,common sense must come into play somewhere wiht other engines and analysis that is just not needed.
A young friend of my Son's recently went to a fast lube for a oil change and they told him to not come back until the 12,500 mile mark on the oil change because of the oil he purchased was a synthetic and would go the distance,,it was Castrol Syntec and and old Isuzu Trooper that has blowby,,,blind faith fom bad advice from so called Proffesionals in the business would have been the early demise of that motor had I not found out about what they told him and educated him.
Anyway it still imo stands the oil intervals demand the engine design,driving habits during the interval along with ambient temps and lube purchased to oil the motor,,they are not all alike,,motors that is but the owners manuals of some Domestics seems to be clones.

[ January 08, 2003, 06:50 AM: Message edited by: dragboat ]

 

[RTexasF]

I have found it to be quite the opposite. Extended drain intervals are the norm here rather than the exception. More ways to spend money? I'll grant you that one but the "extra" expenditures are mainly to confirm the oil is properly doing its job via analysis. Others drop a few $$ to clean their engines from the inside prior to changing over to synthetic oil in order to eventually enjoy extended drain intervals. With all due respect I believe more reading is in order.

 

[OneQuartLow]

Gary, I have to agree with the others in observing most here prefer to extend their intervals beyond 3K. That doesn't stop new members from arriving with the 3K thing firmly in mind but it's fairly rare for a regular member to stick with it as a rule unless their vehicle or conditions warrant the frequent changes. And usually, if that's the case, the interval is based on time and not miles. Another common exception would be for vehicles on their last legs. i.e. "It's a junker and I'm not paying for analysis when NAPA sells 69cent quarts."

David

 

[MavRick]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gary Allan:
...
What makes you look at 5000+(7500-10000-whatever) as "Oh(eyebrow knitted in worry), I don't think I dare stetch it that far (sense of doom closing in)"???

---

If someone comes here and wants to extend the drain interval beyond the manufacturer recommendation, I always recommend doing analysis. Why, because I don't want someone to blindly doing something that can damage the engine and caution is always warranted. I just talked my sister into draining and doing analysis on her vehicle that had synthetic. She can't remember when the last time the oil was changed. Since someone told her husband that synthetic basically never wears out, he believed it and didn't worry to much. Best estimate is it has somewhere between 10,000 - 20,000 miles on it. I just got the report and it doesn't look good.

I personally use analysis to see the health of the engine, and to get a reasonable drain interval that is greater than the 3000 miles recommended for "severe service".

 

[kev99sl]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gary Allan:
Well, it depends on what you call extended drain intervals. Our auto manufacturers are going (virtually all) over 6000 miles and many much higher. Yet I sense fear from those on the board to even think that this is possible, let alone sensible.

I myself, with a well assured (in my own mind, of course) safety margin, do bi-annual oil changes (which works out to around 7500) without concern. I've always had conficence in synthetics and have never had bad results with them.

---

Bi-annual oil changes for you work out to 7500 miles? Bi-annual changes for me would work out to 25,000 miles. I'm one of those who has changed my oil every 3,000 miles religiously, with Mobil 1, no less. And I still started burning more than a quart of oil between changes by 50,000 miles. With 155,000 miles, I'm now at 2 quarts between changes, and I'm on the low end of the scale. You would accuse people like me of blindly following the oil manufacturer's line, but what if I'd blindly followed your advice all this time? I probably would have had to rebuild my engine 25,000 miles ago.

[ January 08, 2003, 11:19 AM: Message edited by: kev99sl ]

 

[Eiron]

quote:

---

Originally posted by kev99sl:
... I'm one of those who has changed my oil every 3,000 miles religiously, with Mobil 1, no less. And I still started burning more than a quart of oil between changes by 50,000 miles. With 155,000 miles, I'm now at 2 quarts between changes, and I'm on the low end of the scale...

---

kev,
Sorry to disagree with you on this one, but if I was adding a qt of M1 every 1500 mi, I'd never be changing my oil! I'd throw a new filter on there every couple of months & be done.

Gary,
I do agree with your feelings towards extended drains, but I also agree with the others who feel most here extend their drain intervals. Maybe they're not extended by very much, but every little bit is good, right? Not everyone can mentally jump from 3k to 10k miles overnight. Did you go from 3k mi to 6mos intervals, or were you "brought up" on 6mos intervals? If you switched, how long did it take you to feel comfortable? What was your decision-making process? And why only 6mos/7500? Why not 10k mi? Or a full year? It's comfort level, right?

I've been running 10k mi intervals for the past 3-1/2yrs on both of my cars. That usually takes between 9mos-12mos, but right now that means one of them will have the same oil in it for maybe 18mos-24mos. I'm good with that. I used to go 3k mi only, but like you said, oils are so much better now that I know I'm getting better protection after 24mos/10k mi than I used to get after 3mos/3k mi. Others here have gone 3 to 4 years between changes. We're all comfortable with different things.

And see? We didn't even flame you!

[ January 08, 2003, 11:54 AM: Message edited by: Greg Netzner ]

 

[S76Drvr]

The best thing that this site provides is information, based on the input (and efforts) of alot of smart guys who do the testing and analysis. It helps each of us make our own decisions as to the products and frequency of use we choose.
Personally, it's been a great resource for saving money and time. I've gone the entire spectrum of servicing schedules (3K Dino, 10K ARCO Graphite, 10K Mobil 1, to 5K Mobil 1). I stick to the OEM's schedule with documentation since I'm still under an ESP.

I've kept more money in MY pocket whether it be oils, filters, additives, or schedule by researching here.

The only dumb questions are the ones never asked.

 

[mkosem]

well, consumer reports seems to think 5k or more is fine for conventional oil in most cases for people's car's. Somebody better tell the owners of cars with 3.0L Toyota engines and 1.9L Saturn engines that that statement doesn't apply to them.

--Matt

 

[kev99sl]

quote:

---

Originally posted by mkosem:
well, consumer reports seems to think 5k or more is fine for conventional oil in most cases for people's car's. Somebody better tell the owners of cars with 3.0L Toyota engines and 1.9L Saturn engines that that statement doesn't apply to them.

--Matt

---

Not sure if you're being serious or sarcastic, but the statement is absolutely correct either way. It points out that, in fact, car manufacturers often do not have the customer's best interests in mind when it comes to fessing up to engine problems, fuel efficiency vs. engine wear, and so on. I don't claim that Saturn or Toyota have taken part in some sort of grand conspiracy, but I also don't think they go around floating on clouds, saving babies from burning buildings, and lying awake at night sweating over whether the oil change interval they've specified for my car is going to get me to 250,000 miles or not. As far as Consumer Reports are concerned, I trust them about as much as ... oh wait, I don't trust them at all.

 

[darrenc]

Well, for what it’s worth, I run 15K – 24K intervals in my Jeep Grand Cherokee…With very good wear analysis to boot! But, like others have already said, it depends on the vehicle. Some engines beat up oil, and some don’t. My Jeep, with a 4.0 I6 and a large 6 quart crankcase and factory oil cooler is easy on oil. My wife’s Volvo S70 T5 (high pressure turbo, 2.3 L inline 5 cylinder) also has a large 6 quart crankcase with an oil cooler/heat exchanger built right into the crankcase is also easy on oil (for a turbo). I can safely run 10K intervals with her car. Neither one of these engines are sludge makers. If I had the Toyota 3.0 V6…what that’s an entirely different story.

 

[Eiron]

quote:

---

Originally posted by kev99sl:
My point is, had I been extending my drains out to 6000 miles, my sticky rings would have become sticky a lot sooner than they did, and probably a lot worse.

---

Don't get me wrong; I understand the point you were making, & didn't mean to imply that I disagreed with it. I was saying (poorly worded, perhaps) that I didn't agree with continued oil changes every 3k if you're adding 2 fresh qts in that distance. At the rate you're clocking up mileage, that's a full qt added every week. Assuming these are hwy miles, I'd guess the M1's hardly affected by the time you do a change once every 3 weeks. If you went to 10k miles, you'd be adding about 9 fresh qts of oil & only having to get under the car once every 2&1/2 months.

But like I said, it's a comfort thing. One guy looks at an analysis & says he's good for 12k miles, while another guy would only go to 2k. If I was adding over 12 gallons of fresh oil to my car every year, not only would I skip changing it, I probably wouldn't even be using synthetic. Just new filters every 10k & a few qts on-hand in the trunk.

Isn't there any sort of cleanser that will clean those rings up? Some of the car dealers out here offer the BG "Total Deposit Control" cleaning system machines, but I've never asked how they work on on rings specifically. Anybody else here have any suggestions?

Oh, & I completely agree with your opinion of CR.

 

[kev99sl]

quote:

---

Isn't there any sort of cleanser that will clean those rings up? Some of the car dealers out here offer the BG "Total Deposit Control" cleaning system machines, but I've never asked how they work on on rings specifically.

---

My developing theory is that cleaners have a hard time because of the cause of the stuck rings in the first place: lack of adequate drainage around the ring pack. The cleaners can get to the rings, but the lack of flow bakes them along with the oil. I don't know if that makes sense, but cleaners that seem to do the trick in other engines just can't get to these Saturns. And yet, when a Saturn engine is torn down, invariably the engine is spotless and virtually wear-free -- except for those *%#$! rings.

I understood your point regarding the oil being constantly refreshed by adding new. I've just been messing around with so many cleaners that I haven't had the guts to further out than 3000 miles. When I've tried everything I'm willing to try, as you said, I'll probably go out to at least 6000 miles with a good dino oil

 

[kev99sl]

My point is, had I been extending my drains out to 6000 miles, my sticky rings would have become sticky a lot sooner than they did, and probably a lot worse.

[ January 08, 2003, 12:38 PM: Message edited by: kev99sl ]