http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=007302#000000quote:
Originally posted by Ugly3:
Slightly.
Pennzoil has a 10 year, 250,000 warranty that requires 4,000 mile oil changes. They state every clearly that if you go 4,001 miles between changes you have no warranty.
Ford V10motor locked up
- Thread starter Cathy Covington
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GOOD MOVE FORD!!!! And may many, many thousands view this thread and see how poor you treat your GREATEST ASSET.....YOUR CONSUMERS!!!!
Maybe someday they will finally get and live up to, "QUALITY IS JOB 1"
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It is not the consumer that is of any importance it is the ceo's paycheck and spifs that are important. I think most all auto mfgs.make crappy products.
It is not the consumer that is of any importance it is the ceo's paycheck and spifs that are important. I think most all auto mfgs.make crappy products.
A good observation, and one which requires a response. This sort of wty would not be covered by the Moss-Magnuson Wty Act, and thus, it may be written so that it's much more consumer-hostile. Penzoil can get away with this, whereas an auto maker could never prove that a one-mile lapse beyond the recommended OCI caused a failure.quote:
Originally posted by Ugly3:
Slightly.
Pennzoil has a 10 year, 250,000 warranty that requires 4,000 mile oil changes. They state every clearly that if you go 4,001 miles between changes you have no warranty.
Hate to hear about your problems at Ford.
I was a FoMoCo tech for 10 yeras, a shop foreman and even got to sit behind a desk for awhile before I got sick of Ford.
Anytime a vehicle came in for a base engine concern (crank/bearing/piston scuff/lock up) the first thing we did was pull the pan and inspect, then we got the service records, either from the dealership computer or the customers own oil change receipts. Woe to the customer who didn't have the proper documentation.
We turned down a lot of engine warranty repairs because of improper service intervals, especially on 4.6s with clogged oil pickup screens. Ford sets a recommended service interval, it is the customer's responsibility to adhere to that schedule in order to maintain warranty coverage. Maybe I am missing something, but Ford bears no responsibility in this situation as the customer failed to maintain proper service/maintenance on the vehicle.
Did the dealer do something shady by throwing away the engine oil, maybe. Did you get a conflicting report from the dealership as to the specifics of the situation, yes. By the time a tech relays the diag through the service writer/shop foreman and service manager, stories get screwed up. Does this shift the maintenance neglect to the dealer or FoMoCo? No.
Grab the 1-800# from the dealer and give FoMoCo a call, sometimes they will work with you. I cannot believe the dealer would have had a meeting with a district rep without you, that is not right. You, the customer, should have been present to tell your side of the story.
I was a FoMoCo tech for 10 yeras, a shop foreman and even got to sit behind a desk for awhile before I got sick of Ford.
Anytime a vehicle came in for a base engine concern (crank/bearing/piston scuff/lock up) the first thing we did was pull the pan and inspect, then we got the service records, either from the dealership computer or the customers own oil change receipts. Woe to the customer who didn't have the proper documentation.
We turned down a lot of engine warranty repairs because of improper service intervals, especially on 4.6s with clogged oil pickup screens. Ford sets a recommended service interval, it is the customer's responsibility to adhere to that schedule in order to maintain warranty coverage. Maybe I am missing something, but Ford bears no responsibility in this situation as the customer failed to maintain proper service/maintenance on the vehicle.
Did the dealer do something shady by throwing away the engine oil, maybe. Did you get a conflicting report from the dealership as to the specifics of the situation, yes. By the time a tech relays the diag through the service writer/shop foreman and service manager, stories get screwed up. Does this shift the maintenance neglect to the dealer or FoMoCo? No.
Grab the 1-800# from the dealer and give FoMoCo a call, sometimes they will work with you. I cannot believe the dealer would have had a meeting with a district rep without you, that is not right. You, the customer, should have been present to tell your side of the story.
BTW it is rumored, and I could believe it to be fact, that the Ford marketing department couldn't come up with a catchy phrase so they hired an outside firm to come up with the "Quality is Job 1" thingy.
I suspect Ford is living up to Ford's target level of qualityquote:
Originally posted by 1maniac:
BTW it is rumored, and I could believe it to be fact, that the Ford marketing department couldn't come up with a catchy phrase so they hired an outside firm to come up with the "Quality is Job 1" thingy.
Job #1 accomplished.
I was referring to the fact that the burden can sometimes be satisfied (and thus shifted to the defendant) on the facts alone without any additional "proof:" Byrne v. Boadle
And again here, this time involving a defendant who broke a statute intended to protect the plaintiff.
All we asked them to do was PROVE to us that the oil caused the problem. I asked them to put it in writing...they refused. the dealership refused...the Ford Customer Rep refused and the Ford engineer refused. the ford engineer said that it could be the oil or maybe not but if I wanted to know more I woudld have to apy...I said OK...they still did nothing. When Fred Myrick..the ford customer Rep was contacted by a frined of our that works for ford Corp. Fred told him that I yelled at him and made him ver angry and he was going to make sure I got no help. and he is the Ford "Customer" rep! Whatever.... When my father contacted Fred...he said that he did not like the way that I talked to him so if I wanted help I would have to sue. this is the same man that refused to give me anything in writing or meet with me face to face.
Oh yeah....Quality is job one!!!!!!!!!!!!
Oh yeah....Quality is job one!!!!!!!!!!!!
Cathy,
Your experience with Ford is similar to mine. I've posted this before (engine broke on '97 Explorer) and my local dealership couldn't have been any less helpful.
I've offered, in writing, to give back my truck (it's paid for so I'm not asking for a refund) and they didn't care to respond.
I've bought my last Ford product and now I go out of my way to tell people just how poor the treated me. They tell half truths or outright lie and generally do not conduct their business in what I consider to be an ethical manner. So far I've convinced people to buy a Seqouia, a couple of CRVs and Civic including telling people just how little Ford really puts Quality as Job 1.
Don't give up and let them get away with it.
Your experience with Ford is similar to mine. I've posted this before (engine broke on '97 Explorer) and my local dealership couldn't have been any less helpful.
I've offered, in writing, to give back my truck (it's paid for so I'm not asking for a refund) and they didn't care to respond.
I've bought my last Ford product and now I go out of my way to tell people just how poor the treated me. They tell half truths or outright lie and generally do not conduct their business in what I consider to be an ethical manner. So far I've convinced people to buy a Seqouia, a couple of CRVs and Civic including telling people just how little Ford really puts Quality as Job 1.
Don't give up and let them get away with it.
I have a Ford quality horror story too. I bought a new 1987 Ranger pickup and had nothing but problems with it. Ford dealer acted concerned but never fixed anything right. I haven't bought a Ford since. Ford has given a lot of customers to the imports, but I didn't go that route. I have had GM and Chrysler products since and have been very satisfied with them.
This thread cracks me up. Not finding humor in Cathy's problem but all the crap house lawyering. I have owned new Chrysler, Ford, GM, Nissan, Toyota vehicles. All had their faults in some way and all the Dealers doing the same tap dance to get out of things. Ford is not exclusive in how they are dealing with this but i am sure for every 1 person who has a legit warranty claim, 10 false ones are probably brought in for owners neglect but the owners play stupid hoping to roll the dice because they still have a note on the vehicle. I am currently a Quality Assurance inspector in the aviation industry and never under estimate the stupidity of the masses. Board like this give a false sense of perception that most people are smarter than the corporate engineers and dealers who work these product everyday. For the other 99% of the real world users off this board. most are just plain ignorant and stupid when it comes to maintenance.
Back in my younger days I worked in a Home Depot in the lawn mower section. I unboxed and did basic assembly to the pushmowers. Due to certain shipping rules and HazMat issue, most pushmowers are sold to the consumer with the oil not installed but sent with the consumer in a seprate attached bag to be service filled once home. Of the average 20-30 mowers a week I would sell, 5-8 would come back with claims of a "engine seize". 99% of these were from the buyer failing to put the oil in even though it was swing in their face while they were trying to start and eventually seize up the motor. Most of these bozo's would then add the oil after the fact and then bring it back. While within Home Depot's right to refuse return due to negligance, they took them back and either excahnged or refunded their money but a $100 B&S lawn mower engine versus a $2500+ car engine is two different stories and can not be absorbed at a corporate level for very long. I guess my long winded analogy was trying to point out is that Ford or any other manufacturer knows what the real rate of actual defective return is and plays the odds that it can ride out the occasional "maybe" they are wrong.
Hootbro
Back in my younger days I worked in a Home Depot in the lawn mower section. I unboxed and did basic assembly to the pushmowers. Due to certain shipping rules and HazMat issue, most pushmowers are sold to the consumer with the oil not installed but sent with the consumer in a seprate attached bag to be service filled once home. Of the average 20-30 mowers a week I would sell, 5-8 would come back with claims of a "engine seize". 99% of these were from the buyer failing to put the oil in even though it was swing in their face while they were trying to start and eventually seize up the motor. Most of these bozo's would then add the oil after the fact and then bring it back. While within Home Depot's right to refuse return due to negligance, they took them back and either excahnged or refunded their money but a $100 B&S lawn mower engine versus a $2500+ car engine is two different stories and can not be absorbed at a corporate level for very long. I guess my long winded analogy was trying to point out is that Ford or any other manufacturer knows what the real rate of actual defective return is and plays the odds that it can ride out the occasional "maybe" they are wrong.
Hootbro
Hootbro,
I can appreciate your perspective and I would expect that there is a certain element that will try to scam the seller no matter how much they are at fault with the theory being that it's no worse than it is now.
In my case I can honestly tell you that after backing my Explorer out of the driveway I heard a "thunk" and the engine went into a no start condition.
After towing to the dealer the diagnosis was that the crankshaft had snapped in two but at 103k miles I was told "You got your money out if it."
I pointed out that the NHTSA website contains reports of this happening before and the service manager said he'd never heard of a crank snapping. He further declined my offer to provide him with copies of the NHTSA complaints.
He went on to say that Ford engines are designed to last 100k miles but regular oil changes can extend the life to perhaps 125-130k. I referred him to the owners manual that says my first tuneup was scheduled for 100k and asked if I and other owners should just plan on replacing the engine instead.
His reply was that that was a marketing/sales ploy to get you to buy their vehicles but they really weren't designed to last much beyond 100k.
If that sounds like I'm scamming the dealer then I suggest you've been sniffing the Jet A too long. Sorry if this sounds harsh but I get a little cheezed when people suggest that I'm trying to pass along my screwup to someone else or that by inference I'm with the ignorant masses.
I can appreciate your perspective and I would expect that there is a certain element that will try to scam the seller no matter how much they are at fault with the theory being that it's no worse than it is now.
In my case I can honestly tell you that after backing my Explorer out of the driveway I heard a "thunk" and the engine went into a no start condition.
After towing to the dealer the diagnosis was that the crankshaft had snapped in two but at 103k miles I was told "You got your money out if it."
I pointed out that the NHTSA website contains reports of this happening before and the service manager said he'd never heard of a crank snapping. He further declined my offer to provide him with copies of the NHTSA complaints.
He went on to say that Ford engines are designed to last 100k miles but regular oil changes can extend the life to perhaps 125-130k. I referred him to the owners manual that says my first tuneup was scheduled for 100k and asked if I and other owners should just plan on replacing the engine instead.
His reply was that that was a marketing/sales ploy to get you to buy their vehicles but they really weren't designed to last much beyond 100k.
If that sounds like I'm scamming the dealer then I suggest you've been sniffing the Jet A too long. Sorry if this sounds harsh but I get a little cheezed when people suggest that I'm trying to pass along my screwup to someone else or that by inference I'm with the ignorant masses.
I have said this before and excuse me if it was in this thread.
The service Dept's and the manf. are adamant about warranty costs. I have a long time friend who is service manager for a GM dealer, his father was salesmen there since the 50's. He has showed me computer printouts by Chevrolet which rated all the dealers in their zone by warranty claims/cost. Being in the top 10 on the list meant that the zone rep was on your case about every repair. They had to send all parts back to GM and if GM decided the replacement of the part was not justified, the dealer was back-billed the parts and labor.
So on one hand they (the dealers) bragg on service but on the other hand they are being hounded by the car companies to reduce warranty costs. They are given incentives to do this, vehicle allocations, free trips for service managers etc etc. So when you get some AH customer service rep being a jerk its probably because there is some incentive for him to not authorize a repair because it would look bad for him, in that his area would have a larger warranty claim rate. I know my friend will do anything to help their customers as that is imporatant in a small town. But he has also told me he has had to listen their rep chew him out for doing it.
The service Dept's and the manf. are adamant about warranty costs. I have a long time friend who is service manager for a GM dealer, his father was salesmen there since the 50's. He has showed me computer printouts by Chevrolet which rated all the dealers in their zone by warranty claims/cost. Being in the top 10 on the list meant that the zone rep was on your case about every repair. They had to send all parts back to GM and if GM decided the replacement of the part was not justified, the dealer was back-billed the parts and labor.
So on one hand they (the dealers) bragg on service but on the other hand they are being hounded by the car companies to reduce warranty costs. They are given incentives to do this, vehicle allocations, free trips for service managers etc etc. So when you get some AH customer service rep being a jerk its probably because there is some incentive for him to not authorize a repair because it would look bad for him, in that his area would have a larger warranty claim rate. I know my friend will do anything to help their customers as that is imporatant in a small town. But he has also told me he has had to listen their rep chew him out for doing it.
My post was a general statement and I do not think I singled anybody out. Your situation is just that, your situation. The law of averages play out in anything but no one wants to be on the crappy end of a average when something breaks. Life is never fair but anything that goes beyond a warranty and breaks is just life and has to be dealt with. In Aviation, parts are warrantied on duty cycles and hours in use. Even today I had to do 4 "vendor with holds" on a $10 million dollar brand new production GE engine that had 4 components defective with 0 hours on them. Defective parts are shipped out and verified bad and GE refunds our cost and man hours for replacement. This would be called a warranty repair. At some point the warranty goes away and the operator assumes liability of service for that Engine. Same with cars. At some point it can be very subjective as to what is "reasonable" time/mileage due to our personal interpetations but beyond a warranty expiration it is wishfull thinking we consumers are entitled to satisfaction . Humans are creatures of habit and if halfway intelligent, make decisions based of past experiences. My experience in the past has given me 300K+ Ford truck and Toyota's but like I read here, some have had totally different experience with these brands. So in perspective, I think Fords are great vehicles and others think they are crap. Who is right or wrong?
Hootbro
Grab the 1-800# from the dealer and give FoMoCo a call, sometimes they will work with you. I cannot believe the dealer would have had a meeting with a district rep without you, that is not right. You, the customer, should have been present to tell your side of the story.
We have never been allowed to tell anyone our side of the story. the dealership refused to give us the phone number for the Ford Customer Rep....always calling him "for us" I had a Don Moore call me last week...he said he was with Ford and doing an investigation. He called me back 4 days later and said he had paperwork from the Memphis office and the dealership and he concurred. I asked him what about my side...he just restated that he concurred. I have called ALL the 800 numbers...I have e-amiled...Fed-EX the Ford president...all have just been ignored. they refuse to give me anything in writing...they refused a sitdown with the BBB and the Consumer Protection Agency...I sent the request in for aritration...also ignored. the only thing that I ever received was a cutomer satisfation survey....are they joking???...which I promtly returned! I even had a motocross friend that works for Ford Coporate call this Fred Myrick...the Ford Customer Rep....and he called me back and said that I apparently made him realmad and he refused to help in anyway and would block anything that Ford tried to do. So what choice have I had??????
I have also been told that Penzoil might not have been my best choice in oil. Any thoughts on that?
We have never been allowed to tell anyone our side of the story. the dealership refused to give us the phone number for the Ford Customer Rep....always calling him "for us" I had a Don Moore call me last week...he said he was with Ford and doing an investigation. He called me back 4 days later and said he had paperwork from the Memphis office and the dealership and he concurred. I asked him what about my side...he just restated that he concurred. I have called ALL the 800 numbers...I have e-amiled...Fed-EX the Ford president...all have just been ignored. they refuse to give me anything in writing...they refused a sitdown with the BBB and the Consumer Protection Agency...I sent the request in for aritration...also ignored. the only thing that I ever received was a cutomer satisfation survey....are they joking???...which I promtly returned! I even had a motocross friend that works for Ford Coporate call this Fred Myrick...the Ford Customer Rep....and he called me back and said that I apparently made him realmad and he refused to help in anyway and would block anything that Ford tried to do. So what choice have I had??????
I have also been told that Penzoil might not have been my best choice in oil. Any thoughts on that?
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Cathy, you have my sympathy on this issue. It looks like you either have to pay to fix your truck or try to fight it in court.
As for the Pennzoil comment - it's obvious that whomever made this statement knows less about lubricants than they know about customer service.
If I were in your position I'd find a reliable used engine and pay someone that I trust to install it in the vehicle and then sell that thing as soon as I could. Chalk this up to a very expensive learning experience and in the future you can show your dissatisfaction of Ford's business practices with your wallet.
I once bought a Chevrolet K-1500 pickup from a joint Chevrolet/Ford dealership. The Chevrolet was a piece of junk but the dealership did their best to make things right. The service department manager commented to me that I should be happy that I didn't buy the competing Ford product because Ford wouldn't assist in any manner with warranty coverage. Your experience only reinforces this man's comment.
As for the Pennzoil comment - it's obvious that whomever made this statement knows less about lubricants than they know about customer service.
If I were in your position I'd find a reliable used engine and pay someone that I trust to install it in the vehicle and then sell that thing as soon as I could. Chalk this up to a very expensive learning experience and in the future you can show your dissatisfaction of Ford's business practices with your wallet.
I once bought a Chevrolet K-1500 pickup from a joint Chevrolet/Ford dealership. The Chevrolet was a piece of junk but the dealership did their best to make things right. The service department manager commented to me that I should be happy that I didn't buy the competing Ford product because Ford wouldn't assist in any manner with warranty coverage. Your experience only reinforces this man's comment.
Cathy,
Don't you just love that little Zone Rep dance they do for you?
Yup, they promised me a rep meeting and when I called the Service Manager to see when it would happen he told it already had! I asked who spoke on my behalf and he said he did! I asked who had more of my interest at heart and he said he did! I asked when I'd get to speak with the rep and he said it wasn't necessary because the rep already denied any customer assistance!
All the 800 numbers in the world won't get you anywhere with them. My Ford that sits in the driveway is the last one I'll ever buy. No Ford owned products either and that includes, Range Rover, Jag or Mazda.
Did I ever mention the service rep who said, on an unrelated service, that I ought to replace my front pads because they were "only" 10 mm thick? I asked him how thick new ones were and he said he didn't know but that 10 was close to zero and zero was bad. I asked him to check on the new ones and let me know. I'm still waiting for that call and it's been years.
Do they think we're all idiots?
Don't you just love that little Zone Rep dance they do for you?
Yup, they promised me a rep meeting and when I called the Service Manager to see when it would happen he told it already had! I asked who spoke on my behalf and he said he did! I asked who had more of my interest at heart and he said he did! I asked when I'd get to speak with the rep and he said it wasn't necessary because the rep already denied any customer assistance!
All the 800 numbers in the world won't get you anywhere with them. My Ford that sits in the driveway is the last one I'll ever buy. No Ford owned products either and that includes, Range Rover, Jag or Mazda.
Did I ever mention the service rep who said, on an unrelated service, that I ought to replace my front pads because they were "only" 10 mm thick? I asked him how thick new ones were and he said he didn't know but that 10 was close to zero and zero was bad. I asked him to check on the new ones and let me know. I'm still waiting for that call and it's been years.
Do they think we're all idiots?
Yes
Whimsey
Cathy,
Did Ford give you their reason for rejection in writing? Did they even verbally tell you? Before hiring a lawyer why don't you try small claims court. It's usually very cheap, $35 ?, to file and they are more consumer friendly. There is usually is a maximum amount you can sue for, but at least you stand a chance of getting some money back without paying lawyer's fees. It might not be worthwhile for Ford to pay an attorney or one of their Reps to spend time preparing for court and appearing. Because if Ford doesn't appear you win by default. They may just fix your RV to avoid bad publicity. It really sounds like you got treated badly by Ford in even trying to ascertain what the real reason for the engine failure was. Chances are a judge would be more sympathetic to you rather than to Ford.
Good Luck,
Whimsey
Did Ford give you their reason for rejection in writing? Did they even verbally tell you? Before hiring a lawyer why don't you try small claims court. It's usually very cheap, $35 ?, to file and they are more consumer friendly. There is usually is a maximum amount you can sue for, but at least you stand a chance of getting some money back without paying lawyer's fees. It might not be worthwhile for Ford to pay an attorney or one of their Reps to spend time preparing for court and appearing. Because if Ford doesn't appear you win by default. They may just fix your RV to avoid bad publicity. It really sounds like you got treated badly by Ford in even trying to ascertain what the real reason for the engine failure was. Chances are a judge would be more sympathetic to you rather than to Ford.
Good Luck,
Whimsey
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