The big 3 will have to prove their cars are reliable over time this all seems like wishfull thinking to me. Besides trucks the big 3 do not have 1 not 1 car that can hold a candel next to Accord, Camry, Altima, civic, and Carolla. More field testing is needed before we all just say the big?3 are back on track with the imports. The Imports have earned there place NO one can question that. No one is pulling for american made more than me, but I fear alot more changes need to be made.
Ford: Quality equal to Toyota
- Thread starter LouDawg
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Lets see how they do after 3 or 4 years of ownership?
Okay, I'll tell you: fantastic!
'99 Taurus 3.0L: 180K and still going strong
'01 Ford Ranger XLT 3.0L: Traded with 120K...never a repair
'85 Ford T-Bird 5.0L: Sold with 180K miles on it, only a dash lamp on the digital speedometer
'89 Ford T-Bird 3.8L: Traded with over 100K miles on it, no repairs.
'92 Ford T-Bird 3.8L: Traded with over 100K miles on it, no repairs.
You want more? There's lots of data out there that supports the findings of the referenced article, my small, anecdotal sampling notwithstanding.
You should open your eyes and your mind to some new ideas and data instead of clinging to tired, old plays on words and misguided perceptions. The truth is a beautiful thing.
Their you go trying to change his misguided perceptions with facts.Quote:
Okay, I'll tell you: fantastic!
'99 Taurus 3.0L: 180K and still going strong
'01 Ford Ranger XLT 3.0L: Traded with 120K...never a repair
'85 Ford T-Bird 5.0L: Sold with 180K miles on it, only a dash lamp on the digital speedometer
'89 Ford T-Bird 3.8L: Traded with over 100K miles on it, no repairs.
'92 Ford T-Bird 3.8L: Traded with over 100K miles on it, no repairs.
You want more? There's lots of data out there that supports the findings of the referenced article, my small, anecdotal sampling notwithstanding.
You should open your eyes and your mind to some new ideas and data instead of clinging to tired, old plays on words and misguided perceptions. The truth is a beautiful thing.
Shame on you.
I have a Ford with 245,000 on it and the engine has never been opened up.
If I had a toy it would be on 3rd head gasket by now.
Quote:
"Ford: Quality equal to Toyota"
Not too long ago the automotive press would have crucified Ford for a statement like this. But now they can't. And I doubt Toyota will challenge Ford's claim either.
This is good news for the consumer. It's getting to the point where we can choose any make and model and get a good car at a good price.
I've bought Toyotas ever since I had a real bad Escort and a worse Ranger. Swore I'd never buy another Ford. Just real bad cars and trucks. The five Toyotas I've bought for me and the family are flawless. I have a Tundra and Sequoia with both over 200K miles with NO problems, the bodies are tight and the interior looks like new. I love my Fords though, so I bought a Mustang GT (Ford's Flagship)as my mid-life crisis cure. 8,000 miles - two new rear-ends, auto-tranny leaks (can't seem to fix it after 3 times), power steering whines like heck, right front strut/subframe has major league clunking (fixed four times now with new struts, or bushings or sway bar - still not fixed), and battery constantly dies (fixed seven times with new batteries, alternators, various computers - I just keep it constantly on the trickle charger now). Thus, from my perspective, and I love the looks of my Mustang and how it runs (when not in the shop), but Ford makes junk compared to the Toyotas and maybe a trip into bankrupcy just may wake them up.
I know...I'm a baaaaaaad man!
It's funny how someone could have a bad experience with a car or two, and that means that everything that company makes is "junk". And they ignore the thousands or millions of others, like us, who've had wonderful experiences. But I guess that doesn't count.
Oh well...some people already have their minds made up, and a few posts on BITOG aren't going to change them.
My friend is selling 02 Toyota Higlander with 52k, had Mobil 1 5w-30 every 4k, mint conditions except it burns a quart of oil every 800 miles. According to dealer it's normal amount to burn.
Unfortunately, quality isn't the only problem Ford has on their hands. Now they have caught up on quality, let's talked about profitability, market desirability, how well the company will survive in the long run.
With the resources Ford is dumping, improving solely on the quality while the company is dying, no, they are not doing much. Their current situtation has only improved from selling unreliable, undesirable products for negative profit to selling reliable, undesirable products for negative profit.
They are still focusing on developement of products that are not desired in other parts of the world but america, while the desirability of these same products will only decrease in america over time as well. They (Ford, GM) should have learned their lesson in the 70s but didn't, and regardless of the quality of their products now, their current global strategy will only spell doom for the Ford Corporation.
With the resources Ford is dumping, improving solely on the quality while the company is dying, no, they are not doing much. Their current situtation has only improved from selling unreliable, undesirable products for negative profit to selling reliable, undesirable products for negative profit.
They are still focusing on developement of products that are not desired in other parts of the world but america, while the desirability of these same products will only decrease in america over time as well. They (Ford, GM) should have learned their lesson in the 70s but didn't, and regardless of the quality of their products now, their current global strategy will only spell doom for the Ford Corporation.
^^ oh! but it's a Toyota! That's impossible! I blame GM for the oil burning
HAH! I carpool with a guy who had a bad experience with a '72 Chevy 35 years ago! He STILL complains about that car. He'll never, ever buy another GM product! Now he buys Nissans, Hondas and Fords and has had good luck. But he's just an example of how perceptions die HARD, no matter how rediculous they are. (I mean, it's been 35 years, get over already!)
What's ironic to me is that now that '72 Chevy is sought after by collectors. Go figure, huh?
The toyota 3.0L V6 does have problems beyond oil burning. But I will gurantee you for every oil burning toyota engine, there's 10 DEAD Ford engines.
So Toyota is NOT perfect, but at least it's NOT proven to suck and there's no catching up for Toyota to do in ANY aspect of their company and products.
So Toyota is NOT perfect, but at least it's NOT proven to suck and there's no catching up for Toyota to do in ANY aspect of their company and products.
Unless the statistics for over 20 years are heavily biased and skewed, Toyota and Honda have made much higher quality cars. You can't dispute this.
It is very true also that all the domestics have made GREAT quality over the years. The quality has closed the gap, and if the article is true, then they are the same. I've been a Toyota fan for over 10 years. The two Corolla's I had were the two best cars I can think of. The 2001 was traded in at 180k miles. Not one repair. The 87 I had when I was 18 went to 300k miles. Gave it to my cousin and he forgot to add oil. Engine seized. Again, no repairs. Just general maintenance. I know there are people that have had domestics and have had similar luck. On a large scale though, you will find the Japanese have made (still do) higher quality cars.
It is very true also that all the domestics have made GREAT quality over the years. The quality has closed the gap, and if the article is true, then they are the same. I've been a Toyota fan for over 10 years. The two Corolla's I had were the two best cars I can think of. The 2001 was traded in at 180k miles. Not one repair. The 87 I had when I was 18 went to 300k miles. Gave it to my cousin and he forgot to add oil. Engine seized. Again, no repairs. Just general maintenance. I know there are people that have had domestics and have had similar luck. On a large scale though, you will find the Japanese have made (still do) higher quality cars.
Oh really? Show us data to back up that absurd statement.
"Not proven to suck"? Nice...very well thought-out, cogent, insightful comments. Thank you for adding to the knowledge base.
I have a 2000 Ford Excursion with a PSD that has over 215,000 miles. It runs and drives like it's new. The only problems with it is it wears out ball joints more frequent than normal. Also, I got a 1995 Ford E350 Hi-Cube truck with the 351 V8. Its got around 192,000 miles on the clock. I've only had to replace the fuel pump, radiator, and water pump other than normal maintenance. Both of these vehicles tow and/or haul 2 ton plus loads frequently.
To screw you all up, Subaru is starting tomorrow to make Camry's for Toyota...in Indiana.
BTW I have 6 Ford personal and work vehicles. Several over 200,000 miles and more. No complaints at all. Great cars.
Not knocking the imports, many are excellent. Those who think Toyota and Honda can do little wrong, do a web search. Your eyes will be opened...hopefully.
Here is just one sample
Avalon shows dent in Toyota quality; fixes sought for 'problematic vehicle'
By MARK RECHTIN | AUTOMOTIVE NEWS
AutoWeek | Updated: 05/01/06, 7:59 am et
AT A GLANCE:
QUALITY GLITCHES
Since the Avalon's 2005 redesign, Toyota has issued service bulletins to dealers on these topics:
>> Bad U-joint welds
>> Faulty catalytic converters
>> Leak in oil-supply line for variable valve timing
>> Vehicle drifting
LOS ANGELES -- Alan Seider has owned 11 Toyotas since 1982, but his 2006 Avalon likely will be his last.
He says quality glitches have bedeviled his Toyota sedan, which he has driven less than 6,000 miles since he bought it last July. His dealer could not solve the car's problems. Toyota headquarters stonewalled his appeals, he says.
"There have been significant throttle control and transmission hesitation issues," says Seider, 45, a computer consultant from Roswell, Ga. "I've isolated 15 different rattles in the body work."
Seider is far from alone. Internet chat rooms such as Edmunds.com Town Hall are littered with complaints from Toyota loyalists about the redesigned Avalon, which went on sale in February 2005.
The Avalon's launch problems point to a larger issue. To meet demand, Toyota has added factories in North America and thousands of new employees. Executives are worried that Toyota's rapid growth may dilute its quality standards.
Toyota and Lexus divisions still exceed industry averages in various studies that measure quality. Toyota predicts that the Avalon will score well in J.D. Power and Associates' Initial Quality Study, to be released in June.
But the quality gap is closing. And Toyota recalls have spiked in the last two years.
Every production line produces its share of lemons. But Toyota already has issued a string of technical service bulletins to dealers to fix Avalons on the road. Changes are being made on the assembly line. Toyota representatives acknowledge there are some teething problems, but decline to call the Avalon a problem car.
The Avalon is the Toyota brand's most-expensive car, starting at $27,355 including destination charges. The redesigned 2005 model was embraced by consumers; Toyota sold 95,318 Avalons last year in the United States, up from 36,460 in 2004. Avalon sales peaked in 2000 at 104,078 units. It is assembled at Toyota's Georgetown, Ky., plant, alongside the Camry and Camry Solara.
It's a car-buying axiom that one should never buy a car in its first year of production, before the bugs are worked out. But in recent years Toyota and Honda largely disproved that old saw, delivering nearly bulletproof vehicles from Job 1.
Now the Avalon redesign is showing that even mighty Toyota can slip up.
Kevin Clingenpeel, a 37-year-old insurance litigator from Fort Mill, S.C., loved his Avalon for the first 2,000 miles. Then the transmission shifts became erratic, especially in cold weather. The engine developed a persistent knock, which could not be cured by changing grades of gasoline or by using a fuel-injector cleaner.
"I pulled up next to a Ford F-350, and I could hear my valve train clicking louder than his diesel," said Clingenpeel, whose Avalon is his family's third Toyota.
Clingenpeel says his dealer gave the car "a wink and a nod" when he brought it in three times for repairs. Clingenpeel then appealed to Toyota headquarters to send out a district service manager. Toyota refused. Now Clingenpeel is looking to sell the car.
"It's sad because there's a nice car hiding behind all this," Clingenpeel said. "But this is not up to snuff from what I would consider from Toyota."
The Avalon's problems have drawn notice from Consumer Reports magazine, which has for years given the Avalon high marks.
While still giving the 2005 Avalon its highest scores in most categories, the magazine's overall quality rating for the car was average because the Avalon scored below the Buick LaCrosse, Kia Amanti, Ford Five Hundred and Mercury Montego.
Anita Lam, data program manager for Consumer Reports' auto test center, said problems with the Avalon cropped up in steering, suspension and body integrity.
"These are first-year teething problems. We anticipate the second model year will be much better," Lam said.
Toyota spokesman John Hanson called the Consumer Reports ratings "the sum of small irritations more than anything else."
But Hanson acknowledged that Toyota has been concerned with the initial wave of quality problems for the car. Toyota's priority has been to find and remedy problems, get the fixes to the production line, and issue technical service bulletins so dealers can fix the faults on vehicles already on the road.
"The Avalon is the most complex vehicle Toyota Division sells, so just by definition it's a problematic vehicle," Hanson said.
The Avalon's transmission lurch is especially noticeable in low-speed crawls during rush hour, Hanson said. Previous Avalons had problems shifting smoothly at high speed with high engine revs. Toyota fixed the high-speed lurch by changing software algorithms, but the adjustment caused a low-speed lurch.
The low-speed problem "is all software," Hanson says.
Some customers are voting with their feet. In Seider's case, he replaced his wife's Toyota Sienna minivan with a Honda Pilot. He doubts he will replace the Avalon with another Toyota.
Said Seider: "I am so disappointed in Toyota. I've had previous first-year vehicles, but nothing like this ever happened. Toyota's build quality has declined in recent years, and there seems to be nothing the dealer can do. Toyota has reached a size that they've lost sight of the individual customer."
BTW I have 6 Ford personal and work vehicles. Several over 200,000 miles and more. No complaints at all. Great cars.
Not knocking the imports, many are excellent. Those who think Toyota and Honda can do little wrong, do a web search. Your eyes will be opened...hopefully.
Here is just one sample
Avalon shows dent in Toyota quality; fixes sought for 'problematic vehicle'
By MARK RECHTIN | AUTOMOTIVE NEWS
AutoWeek | Updated: 05/01/06, 7:59 am et
AT A GLANCE:
QUALITY GLITCHES
Since the Avalon's 2005 redesign, Toyota has issued service bulletins to dealers on these topics:
>> Bad U-joint welds
>> Faulty catalytic converters
>> Leak in oil-supply line for variable valve timing
>> Vehicle drifting
LOS ANGELES -- Alan Seider has owned 11 Toyotas since 1982, but his 2006 Avalon likely will be his last.
He says quality glitches have bedeviled his Toyota sedan, which he has driven less than 6,000 miles since he bought it last July. His dealer could not solve the car's problems. Toyota headquarters stonewalled his appeals, he says.
"There have been significant throttle control and transmission hesitation issues," says Seider, 45, a computer consultant from Roswell, Ga. "I've isolated 15 different rattles in the body work."
Seider is far from alone. Internet chat rooms such as Edmunds.com Town Hall are littered with complaints from Toyota loyalists about the redesigned Avalon, which went on sale in February 2005.
The Avalon's launch problems point to a larger issue. To meet demand, Toyota has added factories in North America and thousands of new employees. Executives are worried that Toyota's rapid growth may dilute its quality standards.
Toyota and Lexus divisions still exceed industry averages in various studies that measure quality. Toyota predicts that the Avalon will score well in J.D. Power and Associates' Initial Quality Study, to be released in June.
But the quality gap is closing. And Toyota recalls have spiked in the last two years.
Every production line produces its share of lemons. But Toyota already has issued a string of technical service bulletins to dealers to fix Avalons on the road. Changes are being made on the assembly line. Toyota representatives acknowledge there are some teething problems, but decline to call the Avalon a problem car.
The Avalon is the Toyota brand's most-expensive car, starting at $27,355 including destination charges. The redesigned 2005 model was embraced by consumers; Toyota sold 95,318 Avalons last year in the United States, up from 36,460 in 2004. Avalon sales peaked in 2000 at 104,078 units. It is assembled at Toyota's Georgetown, Ky., plant, alongside the Camry and Camry Solara.
It's a car-buying axiom that one should never buy a car in its first year of production, before the bugs are worked out. But in recent years Toyota and Honda largely disproved that old saw, delivering nearly bulletproof vehicles from Job 1.
Now the Avalon redesign is showing that even mighty Toyota can slip up.
Kevin Clingenpeel, a 37-year-old insurance litigator from Fort Mill, S.C., loved his Avalon for the first 2,000 miles. Then the transmission shifts became erratic, especially in cold weather. The engine developed a persistent knock, which could not be cured by changing grades of gasoline or by using a fuel-injector cleaner.
"I pulled up next to a Ford F-350, and I could hear my valve train clicking louder than his diesel," said Clingenpeel, whose Avalon is his family's third Toyota.
Clingenpeel says his dealer gave the car "a wink and a nod" when he brought it in three times for repairs. Clingenpeel then appealed to Toyota headquarters to send out a district service manager. Toyota refused. Now Clingenpeel is looking to sell the car.
"It's sad because there's a nice car hiding behind all this," Clingenpeel said. "But this is not up to snuff from what I would consider from Toyota."
The Avalon's problems have drawn notice from Consumer Reports magazine, which has for years given the Avalon high marks.
While still giving the 2005 Avalon its highest scores in most categories, the magazine's overall quality rating for the car was average because the Avalon scored below the Buick LaCrosse, Kia Amanti, Ford Five Hundred and Mercury Montego.
Anita Lam, data program manager for Consumer Reports' auto test center, said problems with the Avalon cropped up in steering, suspension and body integrity.
"These are first-year teething problems. We anticipate the second model year will be much better," Lam said.
Toyota spokesman John Hanson called the Consumer Reports ratings "the sum of small irritations more than anything else."
But Hanson acknowledged that Toyota has been concerned with the initial wave of quality problems for the car. Toyota's priority has been to find and remedy problems, get the fixes to the production line, and issue technical service bulletins so dealers can fix the faults on vehicles already on the road.
"The Avalon is the most complex vehicle Toyota Division sells, so just by definition it's a problematic vehicle," Hanson said.
The Avalon's transmission lurch is especially noticeable in low-speed crawls during rush hour, Hanson said. Previous Avalons had problems shifting smoothly at high speed with high engine revs. Toyota fixed the high-speed lurch by changing software algorithms, but the adjustment caused a low-speed lurch.
The low-speed problem "is all software," Hanson says.
Some customers are voting with their feet. In Seider's case, he replaced his wife's Toyota Sienna minivan with a Honda Pilot. He doubts he will replace the Avalon with another Toyota.
Said Seider: "I am so disappointed in Toyota. I've had previous first-year vehicles, but nothing like this ever happened. Toyota's build quality has declined in recent years, and there seems to be nothing the dealer can do. Toyota has reached a size that they've lost sight of the individual customer."
It seems some have "moved up" from their high school days. It is no longer Chevy rules, Ford sucks. Now it is Toyota/Honda rules Ford sucks LOL
You are welcome. I don't have to back my statements up because the past decades of reliability data collected by multiple indiviual firms prove it. Regardless of how "accurate" it is, it is close to the fact. And sure, "proven to suck" isn't the best way to put it, but again, still close. Facts can be proven with both numbers and common sense/reasoning, some people lacks one, some lacks both.
Sure, Ford has finally learned how to make proper cars, it's still a sinking company.
When a 7 year old for still runs, people brags about it. When a 5 year old toyota leaks, it's a problem. Humm...
What is absurd is people like you that refuses to see the truth that even Hyundai build better cars than Ford and GM with American workforce these days. You can run around and wave your arms because Ford is finally building proper cars. The fact is, with the amount of money Ford is LOOSING by building cars, they better work.
I have better things to do than arguing with stuck door knobs.
Sure, Ford has finally learned how to make proper cars, it's still a sinking company.
When a 7 year old for still runs, people brags about it. When a 5 year old toyota leaks, it's a problem. Humm...
What is absurd is people like you that refuses to see the truth that even Hyundai build better cars than Ford and GM with American workforce these days. You can run around and wave your arms because Ford is finally building proper cars. The fact is, with the amount of money Ford is LOOSING by building cars, they better work.
I have better things to do than arguing with stuck door knobs.
On the car side of things, my family and I have opted for imports over domestics:
94 Honda Accord wagon, 2.2L I4 auto - Bought new....at 160K auto tranny's reverse failed, then at 180K, it completely failed but the motor was still going strong. Traded it in.
88 Toyota Tercel, 1.5 I4 5-spd - bought at 180K for $600, burned and leaked a quart of oil every 1000 miles, lots of other problems. It was a POS but started every time until it seized up at around 201K. Went to the salvage yard.
98 Toyota Camry, 3L V6 auto - has 182K....bought at 150K, been missing out badly on and off since 170K. The motor is full of sludge(of course!)
85 Mazda RX-7(w/ a $225 junkyard 87 13B), 1.3L two-rotor 5-spd....has 168K on the clock, needs a rebuild badly(smokes profusely on startup) but runs pretty strongly. One of the funniest cars I have owned/driven.
98 BMW 328is, 2.8L I6 5-spd - has 110K, bought at 59K...only replaced the cam positioning sensor(If I recall correctly) and warped front discs at 100K. Great car.
05 Mazda 6s Wagon, 3L V6 auto(unfortunately! wish it had their manual)- has 22K, bought new....handles almost as well as the BMW, well made, zero problems.
94 Honda Accord wagon, 2.2L I4 auto - Bought new....at 160K auto tranny's reverse failed, then at 180K, it completely failed but the motor was still going strong. Traded it in.
88 Toyota Tercel, 1.5 I4 5-spd - bought at 180K for $600, burned and leaked a quart of oil every 1000 miles, lots of other problems. It was a POS but started every time until it seized up at around 201K. Went to the salvage yard.
98 Toyota Camry, 3L V6 auto - has 182K....bought at 150K, been missing out badly on and off since 170K. The motor is full of sludge(of course!)
85 Mazda RX-7(w/ a $225 junkyard 87 13B), 1.3L two-rotor 5-spd....has 168K on the clock, needs a rebuild badly(smokes profusely on startup) but runs pretty strongly. One of the funniest cars I have owned/driven.
98 BMW 328is, 2.8L I6 5-spd - has 110K, bought at 59K...only replaced the cam positioning sensor(If I recall correctly) and warped front discs at 100K. Great car.
05 Mazda 6s Wagon, 3L V6 auto(unfortunately! wish it had their manual)- has 22K, bought new....handles almost as well as the BMW, well made, zero problems.
On the topic of Ford finally building a V6 that compares in HP to the Japanese cars...think of this. How many of those 230-250HP V6's require 93 octane gas? Fords 3.5 doesn't, 87 all the way. Sure you can use 87 in some of those other V6's, but you would be losing at least 25hp by doing so.
Ford builds their engines to make their HP at 87 octane, because that is what people will probably use anyway. Take the 4.6 Mustang engine, 300hp from 281cid on 87. GM's 6.0L LS2 makes 400HP from 364cid on 93 octane. If Ford made the 4.6L require 93, it would probably make 330HP or more, an astounding number for a very small displacement V8.
Ford builds their engines to make their HP at 87 octane, because that is what people will probably use anyway. Take the 4.6 Mustang engine, 300hp from 281cid on 87. GM's 6.0L LS2 makes 400HP from 364cid on 93 octane. If Ford made the 4.6L require 93, it would probably make 330HP or more, an astounding number for a very small displacement V8.
You sure don't "lacks" for opinions, but you do "lacks" for supporting data to suggest that Ford cars "suck". Making broad statements like "decades of reliability data" doesn't do anything to support your Ford-bashing. The original link was about recent progress, not about your mystical, magical decades of reliability data.
I'm not waving my arms at anyone...I was simply pointing out some evidence that quality is improving at Ford. I didn't bash anyone or anything, including Honda, Toyota, Hyundai, or any other car maker. I love Honda, I own one now, have owned many in the past, and will own them in the future. You see, it is possible to recognize and acknowledge improvements at one company without belittling and denigrating another company.
Sure, Ford is losing money...we all know that. But what's the first step in turning that around? Building better cars. What else could be more important than that? So then when there is consistent and compelling evidence to suggest they are doing that, people like you jump in and start spouting off about how they're still losing money, they aren't as good as so and so, they suck, there's ten more blown Ford engines to every Toyota engine problem, and blah blah blah. It's called "hyperbole"...look it up.
The bottom line is that if Ford continues to build better cars, and they can successfully communicate and market them, the rest will follow, i.e. profitability.
Doorknob out.
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