Ford makes up MPG numbers too, not just Hyundai

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Yep, as soon as ford published the C-MAX numbers, people knew they were cooked, too good to be true. Too bad the EPA testing has so many loopholes. Basically, you don't have to test it, there is a legal way to fudge the numbers.
 
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Originally Posted By: hypervish
Up to 7 MPG drop, that's massive!


More than that. C-Max went from 47 to 37 on hwy.


That's correct! LOL, I was relying on the article.
 
they all intentionally "cheat" the results. To programming etc just to be the highest it can be in the epa test.

Sometimes they "cheat" too much and get a pat on the wrist.. not even a slap.
 
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Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
I think it was en error in Ford testing the MPG with EPA procedures than intentional cheating.


They never seem to "error" on the low side eh?
 
There was and is no deliberate attempt to defraud anyone in the reporting of fuel economy. It is an average obtained by professional drivers on a closed track. Anyone who knows anything about cars knows that.
The EPA numbers on the window sticker are not a promise or a contractual obligation. If you can't get that fuel economy, it is because your driving style and/or conditions do not match the ones used during testing.
We are a Hyundai dealer right outside of the Adirondacks, and when I have a customer that lives in the mountains complain that they are not getting the 37 mpgs that the sticker promised, it takes every ounce of my being to not call them an idiot.
Whenever we take a customer's car for a day and drive it to document fuel economy, we usually are dead on or better than average.
 
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Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Originally Posted By: hypervish
Up to 7 MPG drop, that's massive!


More than that. C-Max went from 47 to 37 on hwy.

That's cause for lemon status IMO. Ford should offer a full refund to anyone that bought the C-Max.
 
If it was from 17 mpg down to 10 mpg that would be pretty bad.

47 to 37 seems like a big drop but as the overall percentage it's not as bad as it seems. It's still pretty close to 40, so the costs per mile for gas would be pretty decent.

It changes the cost per mile ( with gas at $3.80) from around 8 cents to 10 cents per mile. Still pretty good.
 
I rented a Focus on vacation and did better than the EPA rating.
My Chevy Cruze has never gotten the advertised mileage.
My point is they all over estimate at times....
 
I think big multinational corporations don't cheat on mundane thing like MPG.

What is the speed of the highway test to get highway MPG ? 65-70 MPH ?

My S2000 gives better than 27-28 MPG at 75 MPH while the EPA was 24 MPG. My E430 gives better than 26-27 MPG at the same speed of 75 MPH and the EPA was 24 MPG.

The city MPG is the killer, especially during the first 4-5 miles of driving before the oil gets to operating temperature and thin out.

I give benefit of the doubt to them until there is some evidences to prove that they do cheat.
 
all my hondas and toyotas have always given around +3 mpg then the epa suggested in summer and in winter they give epa suggested here in st. louis.

Now chicago is a totally different ball game, i get around 33city and 37-38 mpg highway in my epa rated 25city and 32 highway 96 honda civic with a D16Y8.
 
The ratings for my focus seem to be spot on. In mixed driving I get 29-31mpg, depending on the ratio of city/highway. Highway I get anywhere from 35-42mpg depending on time of year (gas), temperature, A/C, speed, etc. Pure city I get around 25-26.
 
Yeah, Toyota seems to be one company that seems to underestimate. My Camry gets 37-38 easy on pure highway, not the estimated 31. Had similar results with an MR2 Spyder.
 
Originally Posted By: Rand
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
I think it was en error in Ford testing the MPG with EPA procedures than intentional cheating.


They never seem to "error" on the low side eh?


Always curious about that one...
 
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Originally Posted By: hypervish
Up to 7 MPG drop, that's massive!


More than that. C-Max went from 47 to 37 on hwy.


Geez, that is horrible! Honestly...that seems like class-action territory!
 
The article said that Ford is offering goodwill payments to owners. Likely in an attempt to avoid a lawsuit.

In my opinion, the problem stems from the fuel economy ratings not actually being measures of fuel used. Unbeknownst to most people, the car is never actually driven on a track, and they never directly measure the fuel used.

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/how_tested.shtml

The vehicle is accelerated, on the dynamometer, at very specific rates of acceleration, depending on the schedule being tested (city, highway, etc). This is how many of us believe the OEMs are achieving such good numbers (and why some modern powertrains feel so sluggish in certain driving situations, especially some with CVTs or 7- and 8-speed transmissions). They program fuel delivery rates and transmission shift schedules to support those very specific rates of acceleration in the EPA testing, and optimize the operation to achieve good results. It seems to no longer matter how the car drives in real life. The powertrains seem to be programmed to hit the best marks in the EPA testing.

But anyway, they measure hydrocarbons in the exhaust and run that through a number of mathematical formulas to estimate the fuel economy. If Ford is correct, an estimate of total vehicle load horsepower is apparently part of the "maths" involved, so an error in any of those variables would cause a shift in the results.

Having said all that, the vehicles we've owned tend to be pretty close to the old testing regime, the pre-2008 definitions. I have never gotten as poor as the rated fuel economy using the 2008+ numbers. The 2007 CR-V is rated at 22/24/28, and that's right about what we get with our 2008 model, despite the 2008 officially being rated 20/22/26. Same with our 2005 MDX: its window sticker showed 17/19/23, and that's right what we get; the "revised" estimate is 15/17/21, and we've never gotten as low as that.
 
Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
This is how many of us believe the OEMs are achieving such good numbers (and why some modern powertrains feel so sluggish in certain driving situations, especially some with CVTs or 7- and 8-speed transmissions). They program fuel delivery rates and transmission shift schedules to support those very specific rates of acceleration in the EPA testing, and optimize the operation to achieve good results. It seems to no longer matter how the car drives in real life. The powertrains seem to be programmed to hit the best marks in the EPA testing.


EXACTLY. Vehicles are being designed around EPA (and other) economy tests.

This is the reason why, IMO, DoD, crippling ECO modes, excess gear ratios/CVTs or downsized boosted engines became such widely applied things, no matter how much of a latent defect or driveability issue it may be. If engineers alone decided to make design vehicles and decide programming, I doubt any of those handicaps would be installed
 
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