That’s in the works. They’ll continue to get more stringent until only EVs are made. I figure when it gets until 70-80 mpg only a few lower production special ICE cars will be made by a few manufacturers to not drop below the average.
ford-gm-mercedes-come-clean-on-ev-demand-weakness
- Thread starter GON
- Start date
This.
I agree with you Tesla doesn’t have the build quality of a Mercedes Benz.
I will break down my observations so far:
1. The "cool kids" won't be caught dead in a GM and Ford is real. The cool kids used to drive BMW and are now switching to Tesla. Not just cool kids but the cool mom and dad too. They are likely not going to be qualified for the 7500 credit anyways and would still buy the Tesla to keep up with the jones.
2. Tesla's non legacy cost advantage: another non domestic company can do that too. Toyota, Mercedes, VW, Honda all can do without the union $70/hr cost because they had not been kicking the can down the hall for decades, but they don't have the Tesla's sales, so I say this is not the reason to Tesla's success or failure. It is possible GM / Ford will be screwed even with the right products because of it, but that's the business decision in the past not the EV's fault.
3. Interest rate increasing: yes this is a huge problem for anyone doing advanced R&D instead of keep selling old stuff. Tesla will get impacted the most but the legacy auto companies are also fully in debt to the gill, so that's not the biggest problem. Consider the fact that most domestic relies on high priced trucks for the income this will actually hurt them just as bad as a Tesla.
4. Cool products: again, beauty is in the eye of beholders. Some people like big pickup, some people like the sleek EV, they don't cross shop each other. Nothing prevent one company from making the other's stuff if they want to.
5. R&D advantage: Tesla is way ahead because they dump a lot of money into new stuff instead of keeping legacy stuff. It can be a double edge sword though. This is IMO why a lot of their products screw up come from because they are updating too fast and never have the chance to test things out before selling them. This will likely keep up till the whole EV market is mature and everyone is done licensing (or copying) from each other.
6. Supercharger network: sure it used to be a huge advantage, but now since everyone will license to use supercharger, it will eventually be a leveled playing field.
7. Stock price: This IMO is the biggest differentiator. Tesla brand itself as a tech company getting tech money in stock sales, they can borrow money like no tomorrow, sell stock like no tomorrow, hire expensive people like no tomorrow to work like no tomorrow. This is how growth happens and Ford / Toyota etc will never get there with their legacy business. The investors are different and won't bet on their stocks like Tesla. The only way around it is they seed a tech startup like Rivian and keep a controlling share but not privatize it, then gradually let it mature into place.
8. Scale: Tesla is still small compare to other companies in volume. Sure it has the best selling model, but their overall volume is still small in comparison. Eventually if it wants to grow it will have to compete in the lower margin market against Prius, F150, Civic, etc. Right now it is competing with BMW and it is winning, but eventually it has to go downmarket to keep growing.
1. The "cool kids" won't be caught dead in a GM and Ford is real. The cool kids used to drive BMW and are now switching to Tesla. Not just cool kids but the cool mom and dad too. They are likely not going to be qualified for the 7500 credit anyways and would still buy the Tesla to keep up with the jones.
2. Tesla's non legacy cost advantage: another non domestic company can do that too. Toyota, Mercedes, VW, Honda all can do without the union $70/hr cost because they had not been kicking the can down the hall for decades, but they don't have the Tesla's sales, so I say this is not the reason to Tesla's success or failure. It is possible GM / Ford will be screwed even with the right products because of it, but that's the business decision in the past not the EV's fault.
3. Interest rate increasing: yes this is a huge problem for anyone doing advanced R&D instead of keep selling old stuff. Tesla will get impacted the most but the legacy auto companies are also fully in debt to the gill, so that's not the biggest problem. Consider the fact that most domestic relies on high priced trucks for the income this will actually hurt them just as bad as a Tesla.
4. Cool products: again, beauty is in the eye of beholders. Some people like big pickup, some people like the sleek EV, they don't cross shop each other. Nothing prevent one company from making the other's stuff if they want to.
5. R&D advantage: Tesla is way ahead because they dump a lot of money into new stuff instead of keeping legacy stuff. It can be a double edge sword though. This is IMO why a lot of their products screw up come from because they are updating too fast and never have the chance to test things out before selling them. This will likely keep up till the whole EV market is mature and everyone is done licensing (or copying) from each other.
6. Supercharger network: sure it used to be a huge advantage, but now since everyone will license to use supercharger, it will eventually be a leveled playing field.
7. Stock price: This IMO is the biggest differentiator. Tesla brand itself as a tech company getting tech money in stock sales, they can borrow money like no tomorrow, sell stock like no tomorrow, hire expensive people like no tomorrow to work like no tomorrow. This is how growth happens and Ford / Toyota etc will never get there with their legacy business. The investors are different and won't bet on their stocks like Tesla. The only way around it is they seed a tech startup like Rivian and keep a controlling share but not privatize it, then gradually let it mature into place.
8. Scale: Tesla is still small compare to other companies in volume. Sure it has the best selling model, but their overall volume is still small in comparison. Eventually if it wants to grow it will have to compete in the lower margin market against Prius, F150, Civic, etc. Right now it is competing with BMW and it is winning, but eventually it has to go downmarket to keep growing.
GON
$150 Site Donor 2025
Because Ford and GM will be the next Harley if they don't make products for younger generations. It is bigger than the EV for Ford and GM, it comes down to an entry level small sedan. Toyota and Honda get customers for life by selling a top quality Corolla and Civic. These young buyers later upgrade to other Toyota and Honda models, and maybe Lexus and Acura.
Not so many years ago Harley was an absolute cash cow selling their bikes. But their buyers have aged, and Harley offered very little that appealed to younger buyers. Ford and GM have like risks for different reasons with their full size pickups. And if their was not a 25 percent tariff on imported pickups, GM and Ford might be on life support on their pickup profitability today. The issue with pickups is not the age of the buyer, but the affordability.
GM and Ford DO NOT HAVE TO MAKE A EV. But they do have to make a best in class entry level car with a professional dealer sales/ service network if they expect to be around in the next decade.....
Large vehicles with ICE powertrains just don’t appeal to certain parts of the country, especially parts where fuel is expensive. I know I don’t want it and I live in an area where it seems many do want that. That last line is absolutely bang on. We’ll see what it means to their lineup over time.
For me personally I just can’t see paying more to propel a car down the road than I have to. I do want a fun, well equipped vehicle. I refuse to buy penalty boxes, but the vehicle for me does not need to be large to be comfortable. My last truck rode horribly anyway.
Agree with most of your point. However most young people I know either don't care about cars at all, or want something cool like a Tesla.
Ford has a good product that can compete with another young people's cool car: Subaru WRX. I forgot which one but I think it is the Euro Focus capable of rally racing. They need to keep their small hatch cool like Subaru or they have to get into some cool EV stuff. GM, well they are aiming for the Prius market but that's not really "cool" anymore. I wish them well but they might just get the cheapskate buyers a run for their money from Prius instead.
I want everyone to be competitive, then the customers and employees will be the winners.
- Joined
- Mar 19, 2022
- Messages
- 770
Legacy vehicles....
I wish any company still made a Legacy vehicle. Like a manual transmission,.manual window, type of vehicle. One devoid of automatic climate control, and iPad like touchscreens.
Real world range, and price is what scares most off from EVs. And of course the tech which some don't want. Just a point A to point B vehicle.
But I guess I'm a niche market.
I wish any company still made a Legacy vehicle. Like a manual transmission,.manual window, type of vehicle. One devoid of automatic climate control, and iPad like touchscreens.
Real world range, and price is what scares most off from EVs. And of course the tech which some don't want. Just a point A to point B vehicle.
But I guess I'm a niche market.
I had this thought before. It’s just gone. They’ve decided it’s easier to just make it all electronic and program it. At this point a hand crank window is more complicated to manufacture than an electric one since they’re in everything. Manual transmissions are down to nearly all enthusiast cars only and even those have screens for gauges now.
dnewton3
Staff member
You make a good point.
But CAFE can be significantly enhanced by hybrid vehicles (cars, trucks, suvs). That technology is already more advanced and easier to attain in terms of engineering and production. Ford and GM doing hybrids to increase their CAFE score makes sense, and the market willingly accepts these vehicles.
EVs, while they do greatly improve the CAFE, don't fit well into the Ford/GM plan when they can make plenty of money elsewhere, and still move hybrids fairly well.
It may also be a generational thing. My kids are young adults just starting out. They more willingly accept the benefits (and risks) of the newer tech stuff. I'm ol' skool; I don't like stuff I can't fix. They both drive hybrids.
Last edited:
The next number is 48 mpg though. That’s going to take some extremely efficient and likely smaller vehicles if we’re displacing EVs to get there.
When you take it out of context.
Car companies don't wanna build sensible cars; they wanna load 'em up for fatter profits.
I certainly like stuff I can work on, but I know my limits. I work in the electronics industry, where (although it's not my specialty) a board is generally considered to be a single part and gets replaced as a single part. There is some specialty repair for individual ICs, but that's not generally how they get repaired.
A lot of "repair" these days of electronics, appliances, vehicles, etc. are just large modules that can be isolated and replaced. My iPad basically doesn't get repaired. If I need a "repair" that's really a replacement (which I've had under warranty) and the most they might do to it would be replaced the display and/or the battery. That's the modern electronics repair industry. I'm not sure how far vehicle repair is going to go in that manner.
Hermann
Site Donor 2023
They are stark on the inside.
Electric vehicle simps be like "there's no sales slow down".
Battery producers be like:
https://electrek.co/2023/10/30/pana...amid-weaker-ev-business-but-tesla-looks-good/
Battery producers be like:
https://electrek.co/2023/10/30/pana...amid-weaker-ev-business-but-tesla-looks-good/
I wasn't the least bit impressed with the Model Y that my dad rented for the week while on vacation. The interior is cheap and plasticky, the front passenger seat had the back support button capped off so it felt like someone was kneeing me in the back. It rode rough and many of my family mentioned that. It wondered all over the road what a hunk of junk. There's no "X" factor, I'm shocked people are brainwashed enough to want one. Oh and the center console that has menu after menu. Engineers should have told Musk to not be stupid and to shut his mouth.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Yes, which isn't necessary a bad thing if the materials were of high quality and felt upscale, but they aren't and don't.
Here comes the wall of competition in the USA that was well predicted
Similar threads
