ford-gm-mercedes-come-clean-on-ev-demand-weakness

[CKN]

The reality is we don't know who are funding the Lobbyist for EVs. And EVs have flourished in California because of $6.00/ gal gas and almost everybody has at least two vehicles. The second one being an ICE version/ Hybrid etc.
And yea I lived in the state for 50 plus years. I get tired of rampant speculation by some posters.

 

[chris719]

The reality is we don't know who are funding the Lobbyist for EVs. And EVs have flourished in California because of $6.00/ gal gas and almost everybody has at least two vehicles. The second one being an ICE version/ Hybrid etc.
And yea I lived in the state for 50 plus years. I get tired of rampant speculation by some posters.

Please. Let’s not pretend EVs are some secret plot by some secret entities. If anyone has the lobbying power it’s big oil companies and the big automakers. The Saudis are willing to flush billions on golf and soccer. Imagine what they would pay to ensure high demand for their cash cow.

 

[oil pan 4]

They won't surrender per say but Tesla would have been bankrupt without the multiple billions in offset credits. Musk is really ticking off many buyers. The number of people who would repeat buy another Tesla is dropping off considerably in the last few years.

What are they going to do buy a leaf with less range and have no where to fast charge it?

 

[oil pan 4]

The reality is we don't know who are funding the Lobbyist for EVs. And EVs have flourished in California because of $6.00/ gal gas and almost everybody has at least two vehicles. The second one being an ICE version/ Hybrid etc.
And yea I lived in the state for 50 plus years. I get tired of rampant speculation by some posters.

California. Gas is 5 to 6 dollars a gallon, you can get an ev and you might not be able to charge it during the summer because of power shortages.

 

[JeffKeryk]

Which is wild, because the interiors feel like somebody was given a collection of 1980's J-body materials and told to put together a minimalist interior with them.

A lot of people feel that way. The minimalist, tech driven style is different, for sure. Off putting for many, but not all; the Neue Klasse appears to follow suit. It will be amazing!
Tesla is not trying to be like other companies. That much we can say for sure.

Most cars offer numerous trim levels, options, dealer add ons, etc. Imagine a Bill of Material of a late 1960's GM vehicle; there had to be thousands of variations. That's a cost nightmare from design until wrecking yard.

Order a Model Y, the #1 car in the world both in sales numbers and revenue. A few simple menu item clicks, each with limited choices, and you are done. Procurement is every manufacturer's biggest cost and nightmare. Tesla's minimalist methodology is a factory's dream! Low cost through simplicity.

This is why Tesla has the price war leverage. Is it a viable strategy long term? Time will tell. Given their market cap, the investment world is betting on Tesla.

Of course my use case is somewhat unique, that's been covered many times here. Other cars feel old skool to me; not bad, but old skool. I am likely a Highland customer; our Model 3 will go to a family member or possibly a friend.

 

[JeffKeryk]

That is fortitude. Doing everything and anything it takes to be the best ev vehicle manufacturer in the world.

I don't see ford's Farley or GM's bearra living in the EV factory for five years, day and night, to get it done..I can see TSLA's musk living in the factory indefinitely to accomplish the mission. That is the difference, plain and simple.

When Farley and Barra signed their CEO contracts,I am sure their compensation package meant they could get fired in a month and get a separation package for eight figures.

If Ford and GM CEO got total compensation of 750k a year, with stock options that can be executed in 25 years, I would give gm and Ford a chance for a long term future. Their compensation and zero risk to their pockets is counterproductive for a long term strategy.

In comparison- look at Toyota mission and vision statement.

Through our commitment to quality, ceaseless innovation, and respect for the planet, we strive to exceed expectations and be rewarded with a smile.

I cannot disagree with your points, but business success depends on direction, planning and execution.
The bug boys have failed at all 3 in their EV endeavors. Now they are 10 years behind Tesla and are losing billions chasing Elon's world.
The bean counter's minds are exploding.

 

[CKN]

California. Gas is 5 to 6 dollars a gallon, you can get an ev and you might not be able to charge it during the summer because of power shortages.

You realize California is the number one in market share for EVs and hybrids don't you?

 

[JeffKeryk]

You realize California is the number one in market share for EVs and hybrids don't you?

And just about every other car too, at least in the US.

 

[oil pan 4]

You realize California is the number one in market share for EVs and hybrids don't you?

Because of $5 a gallon gas and other people's money.

 

[CKN]

Because of $5 a gallon gas and other people's money.

Your arguments are not even coherent....

 

[OVERKILL]

A lot of people feel that way. The minimalist, tech driven style is different, for sure. Off putting for many, but not all; the Neue Klasse appears to follow suit. It will be amazing!
Tesla is not trying to be like other companies. That much we can say for sure.

Most cars offer numerous trim levels, options, dealer add ons, etc. Imagine a Bill of Material of a late 1960's GM vehicle; there had to be thousands of variations. That's a cost nightmare from design until wrecking yard.

Order a Model Y, the #1 car in the world both in sales numbers and revenue. A few simple menu item clicks, each with limited choices, and you are done. Procurement is every manufacturer's biggest cost and nightmare. Tesla's minimalist methodology is a factory's dream! Low cost through simplicity.

This is why Tesla has the price war leverage. Is it a viable strategy long term? Time will tell. Given their market cap, the investment world is betting on Tesla.

Of course my use case is somewhat unique, that's been covered many times here. Other cars feel old skool to me; not bad, but old skool. I am likely a Highland customer; our Model 3 will go to a family member or possibly a friend.

It's not really the minimalism I take issue with but rather the choice of materials and lack of certain features (no HUD for example) at that price point. How can you argue to be high tech, but not have a HUD? One would think that would be a natural inclusion if you aren't going to have a gauge cluster. Same with the choice of materials, I'm fine with available options being limited as long as those included are reasonable, but I expect a Model Y Performance to be outfitted with materials and with the fit and finish I'm accustomed to at that price point, and it isn't.

Do you remember the iPhone 5C? Kind of an "el cheapo" feeling version of the iPhone, and priced accordingly. This is the feeling I get from Tesla, except that inexplicably, there is no actual el cheapo version, despite one being promised, but they all feel like they should be. Even the insanely expensive version feels the exact same, and for some reason, none of them have Bluetooth (HUD).

 

[alarmguy]

Let's be real. EV sales are already hitting a wall. Laughable to deny and this with a $7,500 credit.
I do think they may get a boost starting in 2024 as you maybe able to use the $7,500 at point of sale, even possibly as the down payment.
Other than that, when that wears off what is next? $10,000, $12,000 credit to keep the EV market going?
I am SURE the Board at Tesla are losing sleep every night of the week over weak demand and all they make are EV and no ICE which continue to sell very well. It is the board responsible for Tesla success, not Musk, not that Musk wants to lose his reputation though and get replaced.

I agree with many posts in here and I too have said it many times, the EV industry in the USA will have a rough time standing on its own without taxpayers paying a significant amount of money to get their cars sold. Current EVs are primitive to what they will be in anywhere 10 to 50 years from now.

One possible play is do away with the battery in the future using H2 it is recently said in theory, if we can drill and extract 1% of the white hydrogen on planet earth it will supply (I forgot how much but A LOT) enough for the next two hundred years = no batteries to re-charge. I may start a thread on this soon, I wasnt even aware that H2 could be drilled, Mother Earth has vast reserves but never much paid attention to, until now.
Current Bettery EV technology is nothing more than modernization of the EVs back in the 1920's. It's not going to take over ICE anytime during our lifetimes and the lifetimes of your children unless a break through on the scale of what I just posted.

 

[DwightFrye]

EV sales may be "hitting a wall" right now. But that wall is like one of those temporary construction fences. Easily breached.

The tax credits to consumers is something that some low IQ bureaucrats envisioned as part of their philosophy to buy votes with other taxpayer's money and some childish dream that everyone should own an EV and then it won't matter how much pollution China and India spew into the planet's atmosphere. If the tax credits go away, and they should as well as the taxpayer funded government employees who are behind it, then companies like Tesla will adjust their prices accordingly. And they can afford to.
Others, not so much.

When prices on EV's drop because lower optioned models become available, we will see a spike in sales. Without any subsidies.
What does it matter that current EV's are primitive compared to what they will be 10 to 50 years from now ? That can be said about all vehicles. And people need a new car when they need it and aren't going to sit around waiting for next year's model even though they know it will be improved.

You can bet that the best and brightest engineers in the world are working on improved EV technology. We'll see incremental increases in range and lower costs of production for a while. Of course a major "eureka !" moment could be just around the corner. Sure it is going to take a while until EV's hit maybe the 50% saturation point. But ICE technology is almost maxed out right now. About the only thing that is going to help improve efficiency will be radical weight savings technology. Not much more can be done to extract more energy from a gallon of gas in an ICE engine.

 

[oil pan 4]

Your arguments are not even coherent....

Tell me you don't understand with out saying "I don't understand".

 

[Snagglefoot]

This. I told people five years ago that ev adoption will hit a brick wall after all the "greenies" buy one. Even Tesla is seeing softening demand, although a few people on here claim Tesla is still "crushing it ".

It’s not just the Greenies. Have a look at this analysis and yes there is a brick wall coming.

 

[Cujet]

It’s not just the Greenies. Have a look at this analysis

We can study it endlessly, that's for sure. But it boils down to income, at least that's my belief. As that's how I see it.

I need a new SUV. I am not spending $80K on an EV Blazer, when a Chevy Traverse is bigger, has much longer travel range, and can be found for $31K plus TTT.

 

[Dave Hess]

I cant see tesla surviving another decade, the cars are only a few models, ugly as sin itself, poor build quality, poor fit and finish, cheap interior materials and over priced. Other companies will exceed them and the tesla house of cards will fall down faster than it was built.
JM2C

Elon knows the economy is slowing and higher interest rates will curb consumer spending.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/news...t-stop-talking-about-interest-rates#xj4y7vzkg


Let’s not forget about the newly formed labor union at Tesla in the very near future.

Union will want $40-50 an hour and both factories will be shut down for months until they get what they want. Tesla workers are drooling at what they are watching the UAW is currently doing.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

My two cents from the article - Ford and GM don't have the fortitude to be significant players in EV. Ford and GM will just crank out full size trucks and ring the registers. At some point the full size truck strategy will collapse Ford and GM, but for now it is living the high life for their leadership teams.

"Top executives of Ford, General Motors and Mercedes-Benz all addressed concerns over waning demand for electric vehicles this week, as the major automakers navigate losses and price wars amid an EV push that not enough consumers are buying."


https://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/ford-gm-mercedes-come-clean-on-ev-demand-weakness

I was gonna post this. Figured we’d get all kinds of naysayers that don’t believe it.

Even with all the federal money to entice people to buy them, EV sales are failing. That’s the story, but nobody will listen to it. They’re going to continue to use lawfare to kill ICEs.

 

[JeffKeryk]

It's not really the minimalism I take issue with but rather the choice of materials and lack of certain features (no HUD for example) at that price point. How can you argue to be high tech, but not have a HUD? One would think that would be a natural inclusion if you aren't going to have a gauge cluster. Same with the choice of materials, I'm fine with available options being limited as long as those included are reasonable, but I expect a Model Y Performance to be outfitted with materials and with the fit and finish I'm accustomed to at that price point, and it isn't.

Do you remember the iPhone 5C? Kind of an "el cheapo" feeling version of the iPhone, and priced accordingly. This is the feeling I get from Tesla, except that inexplicably, there is no actual el cheapo version, despite one being promised, but they all feel like they should be. Even the insanely expensive version feels the exact same, and for some reason, none of them have Bluetooth (HUD).

I fully expected the Highland to have HUD (and BSM). Once you have it, you are spoiled. I have no idea what HUD functionality additional cost would be, but IMO a lot of potential customers would be swayed towards purchase. Ditto the converse...
I am disappointed in Tesla. Even the big cars do not have HUD.

Another thing is the side view mirror blind spot monitors; cars need them. I love them. I understand the Highland added a small BSM light.
Yeah, the tablet shows cars around you, but it ain't the same.

It sounds like you are not a potential customer; you are hardly alone.

 

[JeffKeryk]

It’s not just the Greenies. Have a look at this analysis and yes there is a brick wall coming.

View attachment 185777

Where do you think BMW and MBZ sell all their cars? You understand that less expensive EVs are coming?
I am not sure there is a brick wall coming, but time will tell.