Ford cuts prices of F-150 Lightening by 7-16%.

[JeffKeryk]

Great, how much does it cost to go from "needing to be charged" to "adequately charged" what is the cost in USD, the total for a full charge? Why is this so difficult for you to answer.???

It costs $0. I charge at home for free.
Unless I am going over 200 miles in 1 day, I have no reason to use a Supercharger.

If I needed to charge on the road it would be something like this:
The battery charges faster when it is real low.
My guess is 30 minutes and up to $20 to get to 80% or 90%. Electricity is pretty expensive in CA.

 

[Torrid]

I'm not "arguing". I gave my opinion. You're the one who keeps this going. I was done several posts ago. This to me is treading water while watching you swim against the current. You're going to drown tired.

No this is you being a complete prick, but of course that’s my OPINION. What a joke.

 

[OX1]

Never said they were. It depends on your use case. My guess is, and it's only my guess, is that EV will continue to win market share as the market and charging infrastructure matures.

If you are driving 50 miles or less per day and you can charge at home, an EV offers a lot of promise. That's my experience. Time will tell.
The #1 selling car in the world, up till recently, has been the Corolla. If Tesla can deliver the $25K "Model 2", watch out world.

Easy to win market share when the gov't ever tightening emission std's are virtually unattainable.

"This Is Not a Gas-Engine Ban", OK, but when 67% of the market HAS to be EV by X date, it's defacto.

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a43546970/new-strict-epa-mpg-rules-for-2027-2032-vehicles/

Hopefully the supreme court keeps batting these overzealous agencies. If you want to legislate, ****PASS**** legislation.

 

[Torrid]

Easy to win market share when the gov't ever tightening emission std's are virtually unattainable.

"This Is Not a Gas-Engine Ban", OK, but when 67% of the market HAS to be EV by X date, it's defacto.

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a43546970/new-strict-epa-mpg-rules-for-2027-2032-vehicles/

Hopefully the supreme court keeps batting these overzealous agencies. If you want to legislate, ****PASS**** legislation.

Something needs to happen because no matter what we power it by, all vehicles keep getting bigger and heavier. It’s outright dangerous. I would think fuel economy standards would do it, but apparently that just makes companies build bigger vehicles that don’t count toward CAFE. It seems everyone’s car every 10 years are bigger. I did that over 25 years time. I hit the reset button because it wasn’t responsible or financially smart. Of course most EVs have to be huge and heavy too because that’s what everyone expects. Fuel consumption isn’t the problem. Humans want to consume seems to want to take up even more space. It’s weird.

 

[Cujet]

Something needs to happen because no matter what we power it by, all vehicles keep getting bigger and heavier. It’s outright dangerous. I would think fuel economy standards would do it, but apparently that just makes companies build bigger vehicles that don’t count toward CAFE. It seems everyone’s car every 10 years are bigger. I did that over 25 years time. I hit the reset button because it wasn’t responsible or financially smart. Of course most EVs have to be huge and heavy too because that’s what everyone expects. Fuel consumption isn’t the problem. Humans want to consume seems to want to take up even more space. It’s weird.

 

[weaponoffreedom]

free.

Right on.

 

[weaponoffreedom]

So let's run through a typical scenario.

The long range 3 and Y have 77 KWH batteries although it varies - the S and X are 100, but these are very expensive cars and don't represent the majority.

Lets say you arrive at a stop with 10% remaining or 7.7 KWH.

You charge to approx 80% - or to about 61.6 Total KWH you'd add about 53.9 KWH at say 50C a KWH so 26.95 for a typical fill up under a standard scenario.

This is going to take between 15 and 20 minutes, or between 10 and 15 minutes longer per stop than an ICE car providing the ICE driver only fuels and takes no extra time to pee, get a drink etcetera.

The Ice car typically has to make two stops the EV doenst - a fill up before the trip begins, and a fill up upon arrival or journey back where the EV typically starts every trip from home fully charged and charges at the destination and very often skips these.

Very best case this penalizes the ICE 2-5 minus stops, but dedicated stop are almost always more than 5 minutes because you have to pull off, and get to the station before you can start filling up so most of the time the gap is less than it would seem.


I do not own one of these vehicles but have the priviledge of getting to drive them because my employees often trade for one of my pickup trucks and I've been driving and road-tripping a variety of EVs for about 10 years. We installed 4 level 2 chargers at our offices.

I get it, I was just trying for @JeffKeryk to answer my question, and he did.

I would say your hypo is off a bit due to the range of ICE vs EV, but all in all I agree as a basic wash in time, but not in cost.

 

[cptbarkey]

The only downside in waiting until it's right is that everyone that has already been making them have it pretty well figured out while they're just starting to get their feet wet. There's a balancing act possible for sure, but the innovators are usually the most rewarded through history if they can stay with it long term. That's where the balance does come in to play though, many innovators go bankrupt trying.

I get wanting 500 miles, but you can do that with current offerings with a 15 minute stop. I get waiting for the next big thing, but there will always be a next big thing. I don't mean you're going to miss out by not jumping in, but if it's what you ultimately want, why wait?

That’s not how Toyota engineers its products. I highly doubt a 15 minute stop will charge an EV enough for 250 miles.

 

[weaponoffreedom]

Read it again. You just agree with his point. Either he thinks people buying them are stupid or he thinks the manufacturer assumes people are stupid. "Ignorant masses." It's literally a post that finds another way in every line to call someone an idiot. What does that solve?

This is not aimed at you, just at the idea.

I do not think that anyone who buys an EV is stupid. Never said that. I take issue with the BS I read on hear about them, and people spewing out garbage like "I charge at home for free" ( @JeffKeryk ). There is no such thing as free under any circumstances and the notion is absurd.

So, if you get rid of your old honda civic gassser..........and buy a $100k EV,................for the purpose of "saving the planet" you are misinformed and need to rethink, and stop touting the BS to others.

I am a licensed plumber, and install countless tankless water heaters in large houses, 3500 sq feet and above, say the average is 6000sq, ok? This "efficiency" thing is beat like a dead horse and it is generally BS. Tankless water heaters are much more efficient....and wait for it:...........at burning the gas they intake and changing it to heat the water........the issue is they use on average 5 times the gas to do it as compared to a tank type heater. It all in the bubble you observe.

So if you think you are going to save any money=wrong

If you think you will save the flat earth=wrong, kind of

If you think you can beat a Z06 vette in the quarter while listen to Mozart=correct at least in a Tesla.

When it comes to raw power, I do not think anything can beat an EV as torque is the same no matter the engine speed, hell, trains are EVs mostly.

 

[weaponoffreedom]

No, in post #194 the words "ignorant masses" were used. How does anyone get to define the "ignorant masses" without a self assumed expert status?

I own and drive ICE and EV, old cars, new cars, etc. When others post the "I think" or "they will" based on zero experience or data, I find that pretty ridiculous.

Ignorant means uninformed, which many are on the EV market. I do not proclaim to be an expert, but I do have common sense, and the notion that you "charge you car for free at home" lets me and the readers know how much you know what you are talking about and part of the ignorance of the EV scam. That says it all.

I was not attacking you one bit, this might be a bit.

 

[UncleDave]

This is not aimed at you, just at the idea.

I do not think that anyone who buys an EV is stupid. Never said that. I take issue with the BS I read on hear about them, and people spewing out garbage like "I charge at home for free" ( @JeffKeryk ). There is no such thing as free under any circumstances and the notion is absurd.

So, if you get rid of your old honda civic gassser..........and buy a $100k EV,................for the purpose of "saving the planet" you are misinformed and need to rethink, and stop touting the BS to others.

I am a licensed plumber, and install countless tankless water heaters in large houses, 3500 sq feet and above, say the average is 6000sq, ok? This "efficiency" thing is beat like a dead horse and it is generally BS. Tankless water heaters are much more efficient....and wait for it:...........at burning the gas they intake and changing it to heat the water........the issue is they use on average 5 times the gas to do it as compared to a tank type heater. It all in the bubble you observe.

So if you think you are going to save any money=wrong

If you think you will save the flat earth=wrong, kind of

If you think you can beat a Z06 vette in the quarter while listen to Mozart=correct at least in a Tesla.

When it comes to raw power, I do not think anything can beat an EV as torque is the same no matter the engine speed, hell, trains are EVs mostly.

These are reasonable takes on the scenario, and ones I hear often.

On greenwashing.
I personally dont know anyone who actually cares about the efficiency of any of their vehicles, or is interested in saving the earth or that believe an EV does that.
I run an electronics manufacturing company with 50+engineers and the guys can carry the 1.
At most some feel it is a lesser of two evils.

There is no cheaper more convenient way to drive an 11 second car, and no 11 second car is as efficient.

The issue of taking a bit longer on a road trip works for almost all of them and those it doesnt usually have another car anyway.

Most I've met in the fashion of the pareto principal believe the real bennie is the flexibility of charging at home and starting every day with a full tank.

On Jeff solar (or anyones)
If you have a paid for array, that you have reached break even on, that is capable of exporting enough net energy to cover your miles it is indeed "free" but only after payback has been reached. Of all the people here, Jeff is the closest I know to be in that position.

 

[JeffKeryk]

This is not aimed at you, just at the idea.

I do not think that anyone who buys an EV is stupid. Never said that. I take issue with the BS I read on hear about them, and people spewing out garbage like "I charge at home for free" ( @JeffKeryk ). There is no such thing as free under any circumstances and the notion is absurd.

My electric bill is runs about $9 per month whether I charge the EV or not. I have solar panels. Just come home and plug in.
I pay about 30 cents per day to for grid use. No true ups. In finance it's called maximizing asset value.
My investment in the solar project has been far better than original calculations because I use more electricity and rates have risen quite a bit. The EV only increases the ROI. Sometimes you get lucky.

 

[OVERKILL]

My electric bill is runs about $9 per month whether I charge the EV or not. I have solar panels. Just come home and plug in.
I pay about 30 cents per day to for grid use. No true ups. In finance it's called maximizing asset value.
My investment in the solar project has been far better than original calculations because I use more electricity and rates have risen quite a bit. The EV only increases the ROI. Sometimes you get lucky.

He's got a valid point though, the solar panels aren't free, so whatever kWh's you are using to charge your Model 3 come out of the kWh's that are going to be produced by the panels until they hit their break-even point.

Example:
Let's say the panels were 25K for a 9kW system and you manage to get 12% CF out of them because you are in California (these are all hypotheticals). That's an average output of 26kWh/day or ~9,500kWh/year. Now, in Cali, your electricity is a lot more expensive than in other places, which means the payback is going to be shorter. We need to determine how many kWh it would take to pay back 25K. Well, using $0.35/kWh for the Cali rate, so that 9,500kWh offsets about $3,325/year, so our break-even point is ~8 years. After that, any power generated is clear of the capital cost for the system.

Now, with the new NEM-3 plan, the value is a more realistic $0.04/kWh, so all of a sudden we are at $380/year, which, using that capital cost, means break-even is in 65 years. So, you can see how extremely significant the value of the electricity you are producing is in terms of how this is calculated. Even if I use my Ontario rate here ($0.14/kWh) payback takes 19 years to reach break-even.

 

[weaponoffreedom]

My electric bill is runs about $9 per month whether I charge the EV or not. I have solar panels. Just come home and plug in.
I pay about 30 cents per day to for grid use. No true ups. In finance it's called maximizing asset value.
My investment in the solar project has been far better than original calculations because I use more electricity and rates have risen quite a bit. The EV only increases the ROI. Sometimes you get lucky.

So you have solar panels. Free ones right? Good on you.

 

[weaponoffreedom]

There is no cheaper more convenient way to drive an 11 second car, and no 11 second car is as efficient.

Agreed............from the factory new purchase, but we can to a 10 sec car for 30k

On the solar portion...... sure once you have hit net zero on the equipment, until you have to buy more panels.

 

[demarpaint]

So you have solar panels. Free ones right? Good on you.

Nothing is free. I looked at a house in Florida with solar panels on the roof. I asked the broker what was the deal with them. She said I had to take over the lease at $75/month if I decided to buy the house. I don't recall for how long now, but IIRC it was quite a few years. Looking at the roof it appeared to have about another 5 years life on it, which imo represented a giant headache to anyone buying that house in another 5 years. Needless to say we walked away. Replacing a roof with solar panels on it in an area where a roof has about half the life expectancy as a roof where I live is a big no for me. My bet is when you replace the roof the solar panels go in the dumpster and you're left with a new roof with no solar panels or buying/leasing new solar panels.

Next time they come door to door pushing solar panels I'm going to ask what happens when I have to replace the roof. LOL I'd love to hear the answer.

 

[OX1]

That’s not how Toyota engineers its products. I highly doubt a 15 minute stop will charge an EV enough for 250 miles.

It won't be to 100%. 5-10 minutes to 100% charge is my standard. The EV world can either go do it, or
have a bunch of us that aren't ready for them yet. In fact your "not supposed" to charge to 100% every day, correct?
(battery life and all). So the "full tank", "every day" seems kind of a misnomer.

 

[wemay]

You simply take everything that is said negatively about EV's, as a personal attack on your choice..... It's not. Your whole "return the favor" comment proves this. He's not attacking YOU. Nor is he being, "condescending". That is just how you interpret it. You're the one who needs to grow up.... Or grow thicker skin.

From CanAmAndMore:
"Most of this is aimed at those who think earth is flat and perpetual motion is possible."

That's "condescending "

 

[wemay]

EV threads:
Dig in your heals boys, don't give an inch. Now hand me a grenade, I'm posting a comment.

 

[billt460]

On the solar portion...... sure once you have hit net zero on the equipment, until you have to buy more panels.

This is the key.... "Until you have to buy more equipment". Now, realistically..... Again realistically, how long do solar panels last before a replacement is necessary?

How bad is the overall rate of degradation? (Excluding the ideal weather of California). It's a fact the older they get, the less they produce. Now this alone can create another argument just like EV range.

I've read that degradation is anywhere from 1% to 3% a year, depending on the quality level of the panels themselves, climate, and weather conditions.

And while this doesn't directly pertain to home solar, they are now saying all of these multi million dollar, mega wattage wind turbines that have been placed offshore in and around England, are deteriorating 3 times as quickly as they had first estimated.

Some are shot after as little as 9 years, because of the harsh weather and the salt air. They had originally predicted 25 to 30 year lifespan on these things. That's a financial disaster.

The blades are showing significant damage in as little as 3 years. Point being is that all of this "alternative energy" is easy to overestimate for both cost and efficiency. As well as expected payback.

That's why T. Boone Pickens walked away from his big central U.S. wind farm project, (The Pickens Plan). After careful financial evaluation, he stated it could never be made to work profitably, with current technology and energy prices.

Back to home solar. I've also read where life expectancy on home solar panels is anywhere from 12 to 20 years. So going with the high end of 3% degradation and a 12 year lifespan, that's going to cut into the payoff on these things big time. And as we all know, solar has poor productive promise in a lot of areas in this country, because of weather. (i.e. lack of sufficient sunshine). That will most certainly effect payback time.

Then there are other factors to consider, like your homeowners insurance. In Florida insurance carriers are now dropping customers left and right who have, or are installing solar. Those who continue to offer coverage are significantly raising their rates to compensate.

I won't even get into what's going to happen when the government stops all of these high dollar subsidies on both home solar and EV's. That's a whole argument in itself on actual cost / payback of this.

All of this adds up to anything but "free".

https://nbc-2.com/news/2023/05/18/i...ping-homeowners-with-solar-panels-in-florida/