Sort of off topic - but I wonder how the Harley Davidson Electric bike sales are going. Jim Farley sits on the Harley Davidson board also?
Ford Cuts Mach-E prices by thousands
- Thread starter Astro_Guy
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Our once empty Ford lot has flipped from mostly Super Duty to mostly F150 … feels like they still can’t keep up with F250/350 …
As far as vans go. I went looking for a Ford Transit high top van a month ago. None on the lot around here. Remembered going by a Ford dealer in Pennsylvania a few weeks earlier that had a string of them sitting there. Went there and they were all still there. Upon close inspection found that each and every one was EV. No one wants to buy them. Still sitting there. Dealer is taking a bath on his floor plan.
I think many car makers were jumping; they knew they were far behind the leader. CA was buying EVs like crazy, and we are by far the biggest car market in the US.
I like Farley; I think the Mach e problem was it was inferior from an EV standpoint. Then there were the acceleration battery overheating problems. The dealership distribution model (mark ups) surely hurt sales. The miles of wiring made the Mach e look like a cobbled together project by engineers that did not talk to each other.
The main thing Ford had going for the Mach e was their loyal customers, but that is about pickups to a large extent. Pickup buyers are not exactly prime candidates for EVs.
They sold a whopping 41K Mach e's in US 2023. According to Wikipedia, the Tesla Model Y is estimated to have sold 386K Y's in the US in 2023. The Y is in growth mode; the Mach e is declining. Not good when you already lose $$ on every unit.
I have not seen Mach e margins, but factory utilization has to be low. And Ford's GM numbers probably belie the actual number as they sell to the dealership, not the end customer.
The EV market is still the fastest growing automotive segment. It will slow like everything because of rates, but its position in the growth hierarchy isnt likely to change.
Why did the big 3 decide to jump in?
2 things mainly.
#1 New segment opportunity. The first truly new segment in our lifetimes really.
Problem ins they dont really build cars anymore - they build some components, and buy something like 80% from third parties and slap it all together. The aftermarket wasnt going to solve this for them. It took commitment.
#2 regulation that was realistically a decade or more away.
Why did the big 3 decide to jump in?
2 things mainly.
#1 New segment opportunity. The first truly new segment in our lifetimes really.
Problem ins they dont really build cars anymore - they build some components, and buy something like 80% from third parties and slap it all together. The aftermarket wasnt going to solve this for them. It took commitment.
#2 regulation that was realistically a decade or more away.
The grid has a lot more problems than just Ev's,
Data centers, AI, and crypto are putting incredible loads on our grid.
AI once everyone starts putting it to work, will become an incredible load.
Every kid will become a 3d movie producer.
Did you read anything about the EPA regulations? It has nothing what so ever to do with the tax credit. It has to do with emissions from the ICE.
I thought I posted this over and over and last post on it. We don't live in Japan. I don't see many 500 Horsepower Toyotas on the road that Americans love to drive.
But let's not get off the subject. It's right here, I can't prove any more than I have and not going to compare what Toyota is doing or anyone else. Because Toyota does NOT meet the standard that would be in effect. The ONLY company that currently would meet the new standard is TESLA.
This is the EPA goes to transform the auto industry. (not yelling *LOL*) Its common knowledge to informed individuals. Its also common knowledge that just in the last week the White House is considering a change within the EPA rules pushing back the goals because they are not realistic after seeing a back log of EVs and infrastructure, we aren't even out of the gate yet. Translated, Washington does not want the raft of the public to come down on them if pushing to hard turns into a public relations nightmare.
We are just going in circles and I can't say anymore, if you don't agree we never will and that is ok.
"The overarching goal is not just cleaner cars, but the transformation of the auto industry: The EPA would essentially impose regulatory penalties on companies that do not move quickly enough toward electric cars.
The new standards are so strict that, according to the EPA's estimates, up to 67% of new vehicles sold in 2032 may have to be electric in order for carmakers to be in compliance."
I posted this before but maybe you didn't know to click the link and not the audio, the link has much more detail.
Here is more;
"The proposed standards are also projected to accelerate the transition to electric vehicles. Depending on the compliance pathways manufacturers select to meet the standards, EPA projects that EVs could account for 67% of new light-duty vehicle sales and 46% of new medium-duty vehicle sales in MY 2032. The proposed MY 2032 light-duty standards are projected to result in a 56% reduction in projected fleet average greenhouse gas emissions target levels compared to the existing MY 2026 standards. The proposed MY 2032 medium-duty vehicle standards would result in a 44% reduction compared to MY 2026 standards."
I purposely posted the above because once you go to the EPA website it's buried in the page and many people don't read that far, which I think sometimes they count on.
https://www.epa.gov/newsreleases/bi...s-strongest-ever-pollution-standards-cars-and
"The proposed standards are also projected to accelerate the transition to electric vehicles. Depending on the compliance pathways manufacturers select to meet the standards, EPA projects that EVs could account for 67% of new light-duty vehicle sales and 46% of new medium-duty vehicle sales in MY 2032. The proposed MY 2032 light-duty standards are projected to result in a 56% reduction in projected fleet average greenhouse gas emissions target levels compared to the existing MY 2026 standards. The proposed MY 2032 medium-duty vehicle standards would result in a 44% reduction compared to MY 2026 standards."
I purposely posted the above because once you go to the EPA website it's buried in the page and many people don't read that far, which I think sometimes they count on.
https://www.epa.gov/newsreleases/bi...s-strongest-ever-pollution-standards-cars-and
I don't think you see the forest for the trees. Even if these EPA recommendations come to fruition - which is still a big if because the recommendations change as administrations change - then you need to make EV's that people will buy because Cafe is a weighted average. You can post EPA cafe rules in bold as many times as you want. Making high priced "Mustangs" that no one wants won't help your CAFE average because you will never sell enough. You can do basic math using average household income and figure out even if it were a good car you wouldn't sell enough. The lack of rebate eligibility makes it even worse. Terrible planning.
So your thesis about Ford having to do this is wrong.
Then you bash the Chevy Bolt, but GM is doing this for exactly the reason you are advocating - because it will raise their CAFE numbers, especially if they sell a whole bunch. That's also just math. The Bolt is a product of your thesis. Mach e is not.
Ford made a mach e and called it a "mustang" because they wanted in on the high margin Tesla business and no other reason. Except Tesla is a luxury class, a status symbol even. Ford is not, and never will be. Farley swung and whiffed. Ego, not cafe.
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Yep, all part of figuring out what to do with the grid. Add that to the mix, along with trying to do away with gas heat, stoves, and hot water and it becomes even more clear that wind and solar are not going to be the answer. Like it or not I have a feeling is ICE is going to live a lot longer than a lot of people think or want.
We are in a Groundhog Day scenario and you’re putting words in my mouth.
I’m not bashing anything, or anyone others in here. I can’t help it if my impression of what I would use a Chevy Blot for is your definition of bashing.
I ended up in the same scenario when everyone was bashing Toyota for not being progressive enough on electric vehicles and now Toyota looks like heroes. Yeah, everyone was bashing the former CEO and glad when he stepped aside.
Being the CEO of a company, especially a huge company is no easy task but we have many armchair CEOs everywhere.
No more Groundhog Day for me.
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But they do count towards CAFE credits. Ford sells to dealers, so all these EV Mustangs count as sold by the EPA.
And you don’t have to sell that many to lower your overall emission score because each EV counts as zero, and we all know what zeros do to the averages.
FTR I never bashed Toyota.
"lol" I had a feeling they were onto something. They didn't get to where they are today from being stupid. Give them time and they'll nail the EV too. JMO.
That is a fair point. Its not zero though, its MPGE which for a mach-e is like 100mpge so pretty close to zero.But they do count towards CAFE credits. Ford sells to dealers, so all these EV Mustangs count as sold by the EPA.
And you don’t have to sell that many to lower your overall emission score because each EV counts as zero, and we all know what zeros do to the averages.
New channel stuffing benefit. Who knew? Ya Ford. (not really)
==
? That is what you said. I disagreed respectfully as my first post. You can certainly disagree and say I am wrong, but I did not put words in your mouth. Since I did not sit in a Ford boardroom, I acknowledge I don't know for sure. But it does seem pretty obvious to me they were chasing the Tesla market, not bending knee to the EPA. All I said.
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Your words, I did no such thing.
"Then you bash the Chevy Bolt..."
I know and I agree. They go slowly and make sure the direction that they are going. They saw this happening and catapulted in the right direction.FTR I never bashed Toyota.
Im sure you remember those threads, trashing them (and REALLY bashing the company) and the CEO. Looks like Toyota got it right. Now if only I bought the stock instead of defend them in here *LOL*
Year to date results I take with a grain of salt, except when intensely watching something as fluid as the auto market.
It may signal a trend and honestly I have invested on and off over the past year so I do watch it. Its now fact that EVs are already building up in inventory and now fact that even Tesla says it will be a tough year and they have nothing to fall back on. Im in GM right now, again, but Im playing the stock because I know how it acts over the last few decades. I had and have Toyota in my watch list but was too nervous because I never really closely followed them. Oh well ..
Ps, for no reason that I know of, but personally I have never been a fan of Ford vehicles or stock price but they do make money every year.
Here are the YTD so far,
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Just having some fun buddy!
Yeah, me too, to much Ground Hog Day. I think of that all the time after someone posted in here a week or two ago about that.
Sun is out, last cup of coffee and out of the house for some Pickleball. It gets addicting and it can get intense, good work out.
I can only remember seeing one Mach E around here. I have seen probably a dozen Rivians. And a few Ionics. But you can't swing a cat without hitting a Tesla.
Mr. Keryk nailed it with why the Mach E is rapidly becoming a massive failure.
"I think many car makers were jumping; they knew they were far behind the leader. CA was buying EVs like crazy"
"I think the Mach e problem was it was inferior from an EV standpoint. Then there were the acceleration battery overheating problems. The dealership distribution model (mark ups) surely hurt sales. The miles of wiring made the Mach e look like a cobbled together project by engineers that did not talk to each other."
"The main thing Ford had going for the Mach e was their loyal customers"
"The (Tesla Model) Y is in growth mode; the Mach e is declining. Not good when you already lose $$ on every unit"
I have been saying for a long time that Ford and GM lack the massive amounts of capital needed to build a truly competitive EV. That goes for building all new production lines using the latest methods and materials, and designing a ground up EV and not using a bunch of existing parts and adding batteries and an electric motor. Plus hiring the best and brightest engineers. They all want to work for whack-job Elon. Even if Ford and GM were to rapidly shift massive amounts of capital to their EV programs, they would still be several years behind Tesla. And Tesla won't be standing still for the next few years.
Farley and Mary Barra are both behind the times when it comes to the EV market. Their EV's have been technically mediocre at best and financial disasters. As are the Rivians.
They should have taken the developing EV market more seriously about 10-12 tears ago. The Tesla horse left the gate and is several laps ahead with no signs of going lame.
Mr. Keryk nailed it with why the Mach E is rapidly becoming a massive failure.
"I think many car makers were jumping; they knew they were far behind the leader. CA was buying EVs like crazy"
"I think the Mach e problem was it was inferior from an EV standpoint. Then there were the acceleration battery overheating problems. The dealership distribution model (mark ups) surely hurt sales. The miles of wiring made the Mach e look like a cobbled together project by engineers that did not talk to each other."
"The main thing Ford had going for the Mach e was their loyal customers"
"The (Tesla Model) Y is in growth mode; the Mach e is declining. Not good when you already lose $$ on every unit"
I have been saying for a long time that Ford and GM lack the massive amounts of capital needed to build a truly competitive EV. That goes for building all new production lines using the latest methods and materials, and designing a ground up EV and not using a bunch of existing parts and adding batteries and an electric motor. Plus hiring the best and brightest engineers. They all want to work for whack-job Elon. Even if Ford and GM were to rapidly shift massive amounts of capital to their EV programs, they would still be several years behind Tesla. And Tesla won't be standing still for the next few years.
Farley and Mary Barra are both behind the times when it comes to the EV market. Their EV's have been technically mediocre at best and financial disasters. As are the Rivians.
They should have taken the developing EV market more seriously about 10-12 tears ago. The Tesla horse left the gate and is several laps ahead with no signs of going lame.
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