For those that still defend K&N
- Thread starter widman
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widman,
I currently am running a few K&N filters and mine don't look anything like that picture.
Scouring the web and local applications for pictures of bad looking K&N filters as proof of your argument against K&N is disappointing.
I'll be happy to post mine when I can get a chance.
I currently am running a few K&N filters and mine don't look anything like that picture.
Scouring the web and local applications for pictures of bad looking K&N filters as proof of your argument against K&N is disappointing.
I'll be happy to post mine when I can get a chance.
I currently run a dry filter, but have had many K&N since '95. I cleaned my Dad's K&N on his 3.0 Duratec Montego this past summer. It was in for 40K , and never touched. The airbox was filthy. The car was driven on gravel a lot. There were bugs, foxtails, you-name-it in the bottom of the airbox. The filter was filthy. As a test, I took a white paper towel, and wiped the inside of the intake tube -- after the filter. It came back clean as new. I'm still not afraid to run them, and I will if no dry alternative is available.
I can't even tell if the OP's pic is a K&N. If it is, it's a severely neglected filter (dry -- when it should have oil), and is no proof or any test IMO.
I can't even tell if the OP's pic is a K&N. If it is, it's a severely neglected filter (dry -- when it should have oil), and is no proof or any test IMO.
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Originally Posted By: bigmike
widman,
I currently am running a few K&N filters and mine don't look anything like that picture.
Scouring the web and local applications for pictures of bad looking K&N filters as proof of your argument against K&N is disappointing.
I'll be happy to post mine when I can get a chance.
Bigmike, there is a huge amount of negative stuff about cotton gauze filters stuff on the web. Much of it is spurious and unfair, some legitimate and thought provoking. If you didn't find any of that good anti stuff, you either didn't look hard enough or didn't want to find it. Start by Googling "Spicer air filter test" which I believe has been posted here some while back. It's all over the web these days. There are also some tests from SWRI that AEM commissioned that tested a couple of different OCG fitlers and the efficiency is disappointing compared to a modern OE fitler or some of the aftermarket dry filters.
The filter Widman Showed is obviously an abused filter... but that's part of the point. When new, OCG efficiency is adequate (though not stellar) and it will serve most street driven vehicles not in a very duty envirnment well enough but it's pretty easy to hurt an OCG filter, during cleaning, and radically decrease efficiency.
widman,
I currently am running a few K&N filters and mine don't look anything like that picture.
Scouring the web and local applications for pictures of bad looking K&N filters as proof of your argument against K&N is disappointing.
I'll be happy to post mine when I can get a chance.
Bigmike, there is a huge amount of negative stuff about cotton gauze filters stuff on the web. Much of it is spurious and unfair, some legitimate and thought provoking. If you didn't find any of that good anti stuff, you either didn't look hard enough or didn't want to find it. Start by Googling "Spicer air filter test" which I believe has been posted here some while back. It's all over the web these days. There are also some tests from SWRI that AEM commissioned that tested a couple of different OCG fitlers and the efficiency is disappointing compared to a modern OE fitler or some of the aftermarket dry filters.
The filter Widman Showed is obviously an abused filter... but that's part of the point. When new, OCG efficiency is adequate (though not stellar) and it will serve most street driven vehicles not in a very duty envirnment well enough but it's pretty easy to hurt an OCG filter, during cleaning, and radically decrease efficiency.
Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
Originally Posted By: bigmike
widman,
I currently am running a few K&N filters and mine don't look anything like that picture.
Scouring the web and local applications for pictures of bad looking K&N filters as proof of your argument against K&N is disappointing.
I'll be happy to post mine when I can get a chance.
Bigmike, there is a huge amount of negative stuff about cotton gauze filters stuff on the web. Much of it is spurious and unfair, some legitimate and thought provoking. If you didn't find any of that good anti stuff, you either didn't look hard enough or didn't want to find it. Start by Googling "Spicer air filter test" which I believe has been posted here some while back. It's all over the web these days. There are also some tests from SWRI that AEM commissioned that tested a couple of different OCG fitlers and the efficiency is disappointing compared to a modern OE fitler or some of the aftermarket dry filters.
The filter Widman Showed is obviously an abused filter... but that's part of the point. When new, OCG efficiency is adequate (though not stellar) and it will serve most street driven vehicles not in a very duty envirnment well enough but it's pretty easy to hurt an OCG filter, during cleaning, and radically decrease efficiency.
Jim,
I appreciate the comments. We've been through this plenty of times and I've read quite a bit on both sides of the K&N debate. I can remain pretty impartial throughout, but this picture widman posted is unfair.
I could show plenty of pictures of abused paper filters and 'conclude' that they are inferior - that's an imbalanced argument.
Reread what I wrote:
Scouring the web and local applications for pictures of bad looking K&N filters as proof of your argument against K&N is disappointing.
Widman has posted several anti-K&N threads and I have read much of the pro/con "studies." I'm OK with someone posting their opinion and the research, but naming a thread as "for those that still defend K&N" instead of stating "Here's an abused K&N filter in such&such application" (or similar) can be taken as confrontational.
There is no "war" here between K&N (or OCG filters) vs. paper or OEM or additional brands/kinds. Arguments here should be better justified.
Again, I'd be happy to post "counter pictures" to the original poster, but I'm wondering if this means anything to a legitimate argument or not.
Originally Posted By: bigmike
widman,
I currently am running a few K&N filters and mine don't look anything like that picture.
Scouring the web and local applications for pictures of bad looking K&N filters as proof of your argument against K&N is disappointing.
I'll be happy to post mine when I can get a chance.
Bigmike, there is a huge amount of negative stuff about cotton gauze filters stuff on the web. Much of it is spurious and unfair, some legitimate and thought provoking. If you didn't find any of that good anti stuff, you either didn't look hard enough or didn't want to find it. Start by Googling "Spicer air filter test" which I believe has been posted here some while back. It's all over the web these days. There are also some tests from SWRI that AEM commissioned that tested a couple of different OCG fitlers and the efficiency is disappointing compared to a modern OE fitler or some of the aftermarket dry filters.
The filter Widman Showed is obviously an abused filter... but that's part of the point. When new, OCG efficiency is adequate (though not stellar) and it will serve most street driven vehicles not in a very duty envirnment well enough but it's pretty easy to hurt an OCG filter, during cleaning, and radically decrease efficiency.
Jim,
I appreciate the comments. We've been through this plenty of times and I've read quite a bit on both sides of the K&N debate. I can remain pretty impartial throughout, but this picture widman posted is unfair.
I could show plenty of pictures of abused paper filters and 'conclude' that they are inferior - that's an imbalanced argument.
Reread what I wrote:
Scouring the web and local applications for pictures of bad looking K&N filters as proof of your argument against K&N is disappointing.
Widman has posted several anti-K&N threads and I have read much of the pro/con "studies." I'm OK with someone posting their opinion and the research, but naming a thread as "for those that still defend K&N" instead of stating "Here's an abused K&N filter in such&such application" (or similar) can be taken as confrontational.
There is no "war" here between K&N (or OCG filters) vs. paper or OEM or additional brands/kinds. Arguments here should be better justified.
Again, I'd be happy to post "counter pictures" to the original poster, but I'm wondering if this means anything to a legitimate argument or not.
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I've posted pics of bad paper filters as well, and if you really want to see the picture of the letters on the side of the seal, I can post them.
One of the problems with any filter that you take out and put in many times is that it gets damaged. There are lots of ways to damage it, bending, "cleaning", etc.
Whether damaged or not, there are plenty of studies that show less efficiency in these. And yes, if you drive asphalt and sell your car every few years, it doesn't matter.
It only matters if you want maximum engine life and power over the time you will have it.
One of the problems with any filter that you take out and put in many times is that it gets damaged. There are lots of ways to damage it, bending, "cleaning", etc.
Whether damaged or not, there are plenty of studies that show less efficiency in these. And yes, if you drive asphalt and sell your car every few years, it doesn't matter.
It only matters if you want maximum engine life and power over the time you will have it.
Even when a K&N is brand new out of the box, you can hold it up to light and see through it. If you can see light, you can be sure dirt is going to "see" it too. Airflow takes the path of least resistance.
I have looked at the K&N filters I use in my Accord and Silverado and see no light or holes passing through. Either they improved them or something was wrong with those filters.
As for the comment of engine longevity, that's preposterous. I've never seen anyone come forward to claim or show proof of an engine being exhausted early by direct cause of a filter.
As for the comment of engine longevity, that's preposterous. I've never seen anyone come forward to claim or show proof of an engine being exhausted early by direct cause of a filter.
Quote:
As for the comment of engine longevity, that's preposterous. I've never seen anyone come forward to claim or show proof of an engine being exhausted early by direct cause of a filter.
Come on down.......... I can show you hundreds..... I've got dozens posted on my site.
As for the comment of engine longevity, that's preposterous. I've never seen anyone come forward to claim or show proof of an engine being exhausted early by direct cause of a filter.
Come on down.......... I can show you hundreds..... I've got dozens posted on my site.
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So far, I've discarded vehicles (sold them) long before I'd say the engine was beyond its useful life. This typically occurs at around the 20 year mark and with excess of 200k miles on them. They all have had K&N air filters. I'll be happy to sell you a 20 year old Honda Accord with the original K&N, in about 18 years from now for a good price.
Widman, carry on your crusade. It is nice to know the information, the specifics of filtration, obviously because this is why BITOG is around - for the "technicals," if you will. But, it doesn't mean much to those of us that never experienced an issue.
Widman, carry on your crusade. It is nice to know the information, the specifics of filtration, obviously because this is why BITOG is around - for the "technicals," if you will. But, it doesn't mean much to those of us that never experienced an issue.
I don't think anyone is convinced either. However, I've noticed the following:
1. In the Oil Filter section, FRAM is the one that gets dumped on.
2. In the Coolant section, DEXCOOL gets dumped on.
3. In the Air Filter section, K&N gets dumped on.
4. In the Oil Additives section, ZMAX gets dumped on.
5. In the Firearms section, REMINGTON and TAURUS get dumped on.
6. In the Small Engine section, anything other than Echo or Stihl gets dumped on.
7. In the ATF section, Honda ATF gets dumped on.
I could keep going!
Apparently, there are zealots everywhere that have amazing knowledge of particular products, and the rest of us know nothing in comparison.
I find it odd that I bet *most* of these people never even used the product (or to any extended length), but yet still consider themselves to be the defacto authority on the said product regardless.
Someone should tell these people to politely shutup because they are ruining this site with their spewage. They have successfully run off many of the good posters that used to be here and have discouraged others (see the General Off Topic thread). It isn't a fair practice and, if anyone cares to take notice, I rarely post anything BAD about products and defend many that I do have experience with.
For people that post proof and are informative, obviously, this doesn't apply.
1. In the Oil Filter section, FRAM is the one that gets dumped on.
2. In the Coolant section, DEXCOOL gets dumped on.
3. In the Air Filter section, K&N gets dumped on.
4. In the Oil Additives section, ZMAX gets dumped on.
5. In the Firearms section, REMINGTON and TAURUS get dumped on.
6. In the Small Engine section, anything other than Echo or Stihl gets dumped on.
7. In the ATF section, Honda ATF gets dumped on.
I could keep going!
Apparently, there are zealots everywhere that have amazing knowledge of particular products, and the rest of us know nothing in comparison.
I find it odd that I bet *most* of these people never even used the product (or to any extended length), but yet still consider themselves to be the defacto authority on the said product regardless.
Someone should tell these people to politely shutup because they are ruining this site with their spewage. They have successfully run off many of the good posters that used to be here and have discouraged others (see the General Off Topic thread). It isn't a fair practice and, if anyone cares to take notice, I rarely post anything BAD about products and defend many that I do have experience with.
For people that post proof and are informative, obviously, this doesn't apply.
Originally Posted By: bigmike
I
Someone should tell these people to politely shutup because they are ruining this site with their spewage. They have successfully run off many of the good posters that used to be here and have discouraged others (see the General Off Topic thread). It isn't a fair practice and, if anyone cares to take notice, I rarely post anything BAD about products and defend many that I do have experience with.
For people that post proof and are informative, obviously, this doesn't apply.
I think you just did! ( : < )
I don't share your appreciation for OCG filters (though I used to, until some poor performance moved me away from them) but I share your annoyance at unsubstantiated information and those "me too" negative posts. A drop of urine in the bladder of life, my friend. LIfe is 90 percent how you take it and 10 percent how you make it. That's what the delete key is for!
I would NOT make the mistake of disregarding Widman, however. He lives in a very challenging vehicular environment. In some ways, (and I mean no insult to you or Bolivia when I say this, Widman) he's a "missionary" preaching the PM "gospel" to "heathens." He gets to see the nastiest of the nasty ways people can neglect or abuse motor vehicles. The pic that started this thread is but one of many examples he has shared. His perspective is a legitimate one and he applies a certain amount of science to what he says and does. If you go back and look through his many posts, you'll see that's true.
There are also legitimate reasons behind OCG filters being dissed. Some people are better at making that case than others, but there are "me too's " on both sides.
I
Someone should tell these people to politely shutup because they are ruining this site with their spewage. They have successfully run off many of the good posters that used to be here and have discouraged others (see the General Off Topic thread). It isn't a fair practice and, if anyone cares to take notice, I rarely post anything BAD about products and defend many that I do have experience with.
For people that post proof and are informative, obviously, this doesn't apply.
I think you just did! ( : < )
I don't share your appreciation for OCG filters (though I used to, until some poor performance moved me away from them) but I share your annoyance at unsubstantiated information and those "me too" negative posts. A drop of urine in the bladder of life, my friend. LIfe is 90 percent how you take it and 10 percent how you make it. That's what the delete key is for!
I would NOT make the mistake of disregarding Widman, however. He lives in a very challenging vehicular environment. In some ways, (and I mean no insult to you or Bolivia when I say this, Widman) he's a "missionary" preaching the PM "gospel" to "heathens." He gets to see the nastiest of the nasty ways people can neglect or abuse motor vehicles. The pic that started this thread is but one of many examples he has shared. His perspective is a legitimate one and he applies a certain amount of science to what he says and does. If you go back and look through his many posts, you'll see that's true.
There are also legitimate reasons behind OCG filters being dissed. Some people are better at making that case than others, but there are "me too's " on both sides.
Originally Posted By: bigmike
I don't think anyone is convinced either. However, I've noticed the following:
1. In the Oil Filter section, FRAM is the one that gets dumped on.
2. In the Coolant section, DEXCOOL gets dumped on.
3. In the Air Filter section, K&N gets dumped on.
4. In the Oil Additives section, ZMAX gets dumped on.
yes yes yes
I don't think anyone is convinced either. However, I've noticed the following:
1. In the Oil Filter section, FRAM is the one that gets dumped on.
2. In the Coolant section, DEXCOOL gets dumped on.
3. In the Air Filter section, K&N gets dumped on.
4. In the Oil Additives section, ZMAX gets dumped on.
yes yes yes
Originally Posted By: bigmike
I don't think anyone is convinced either. However, I've noticed the following:
1. In the Oil Filter section, FRAM is the one that gets dumped on.
2. In the Coolant section, DEXCOOL gets dumped on.
3. In the Air Filter section, K&N gets dumped on.
4. In the Oil Additives section, ZMAX gets dumped on.
One of the reasons is, all those products are more expensive then competitors.
Why should I pay more for Fram when I get similar or better filter from Purolator or Man ?
Why should I pay more for DEXCOOL when I get similar or better coolant from Peak or Zerex ?
Why should I pay a lot more for K&N when I get air filter from dealer or any other after market that filter better and no oiling is needed ?
Why should I pay $30-40 for an unproven productive Zmax when I can buy Lubromoly MOS2 for less than $5 ?
I don't think anyone is convinced either. However, I've noticed the following:
1. In the Oil Filter section, FRAM is the one that gets dumped on.
2. In the Coolant section, DEXCOOL gets dumped on.
3. In the Air Filter section, K&N gets dumped on.
4. In the Oil Additives section, ZMAX gets dumped on.
One of the reasons is, all those products are more expensive then competitors.
Why should I pay more for Fram when I get similar or better filter from Purolator or Man ?
Why should I pay more for DEXCOOL when I get similar or better coolant from Peak or Zerex ?
Why should I pay a lot more for K&N when I get air filter from dealer or any other after market that filter better and no oiling is needed ?
Why should I pay $30-40 for an unproven productive Zmax when I can buy Lubromoly MOS2 for less than $5 ?
As any air filter, K&N has his own pro and cons:
Pro:
1. Better airflow (less resistance) during low and mid rpm compared to most paper filter
2. The more you use the more it will filter better
3. There are many size for universal type so easily can convert to bigger filter that allow better airflow and higher dirt holding capacity
4. Can last very long with good maintenance
Cons:
1. in high rpm the filter media might collapse/flapping to release more dirt to engine and depends on the design it may disrupt air flow
2. The drop in filter typically has less filtering surface compared to cloth type air filter (normally used in Toyota) so
it may not really give better total air flow across all rpm
3. The filter is not good on filtering very fine dust, so engine oil getting dirtier sooner even though when you wipe the throttle body it looks clean
4. Must do DIY to clean, most workshop doesn't know how to clean, worst they will blow with compressed air that means you need to buy new filter
For me, I stop using K&N and just use OEM cloth filter and change every 20k.
Pro:
1. Better airflow (less resistance) during low and mid rpm compared to most paper filter
2. The more you use the more it will filter better
3. There are many size for universal type so easily can convert to bigger filter that allow better airflow and higher dirt holding capacity
4. Can last very long with good maintenance
Cons:
1. in high rpm the filter media might collapse/flapping to release more dirt to engine and depends on the design it may disrupt air flow
2. The drop in filter typically has less filtering surface compared to cloth type air filter (normally used in Toyota) so
it may not really give better total air flow across all rpm
3. The filter is not good on filtering very fine dust, so engine oil getting dirtier sooner even though when you wipe the throttle body it looks clean
4. Must do DIY to clean, most workshop doesn't know how to clean, worst they will blow with compressed air that means you need to buy new filter
For me, I stop using K&N and just use OEM cloth filter and change every 20k.
Originally Posted By: widman
I took this off a Tacoma. It doesn't take a genius to see the holes where dirt passes. No "proper oiling" will fix this...
Paper or AFE for my Tacoma. I held a new K&N up to the light at an autoparts store once, and saw all I needed to.
I took this off a Tacoma. It doesn't take a genius to see the holes where dirt passes. No "proper oiling" will fix this...
Paper or AFE for my Tacoma. I held a new K&N up to the light at an autoparts store once, and saw all I needed to.
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Originally Posted By: bigmike
I don't think anyone is convinced either. However, I've noticed the following:
1. In the Oil Filter section, FRAM is the one that gets dumped on.
2. In the Coolant section, DEXCOOL gets dumped on.
3. In the Air Filter section, K&N gets dumped on.
4. In the Oil Additives section, ZMAX gets dumped on.
One of the reasons is, all those products are more expensive then competitors.
Why should I pay more for Fram when I get similar or better filter from Purolator or Man ?
Why should I pay more for DEXCOOL when I get similar or better coolant from Peak or Zerex ?
Why should I pay a lot more for K&N when I get air filter from dealer or any other after market that filter better and no oiling is needed ?
Why should I pay $30-40 for an unproven productive Zmax when I can buy Lubromoly MOS2 for less than $5 ?
Although all those points are true, those aren't the.....um.....LOUDEST reasons we hear on the site.
Since when does Orange Can of Death = it costs more? As for DEXCOOL, even other "Dexclones" (very clever) are derided for sludging up your engine. And everyone has a K&N horror sotry that a friend of their local mechanic told them. And put all three on your car? Well, that thing will obviously explode once you turn your key.
While price may be your deciding point (and one I can actually respect) some of the more prevelent reasons seen on the boards aren't always based on much more than a "feeling".
Originally Posted By: bigmike
I don't think anyone is convinced either. However, I've noticed the following:
1. In the Oil Filter section, FRAM is the one that gets dumped on.
2. In the Coolant section, DEXCOOL gets dumped on.
3. In the Air Filter section, K&N gets dumped on.
4. In the Oil Additives section, ZMAX gets dumped on.
One of the reasons is, all those products are more expensive then competitors.
Why should I pay more for Fram when I get similar or better filter from Purolator or Man ?
Why should I pay more for DEXCOOL when I get similar or better coolant from Peak or Zerex ?
Why should I pay a lot more for K&N when I get air filter from dealer or any other after market that filter better and no oiling is needed ?
Why should I pay $30-40 for an unproven productive Zmax when I can buy Lubromoly MOS2 for less than $5 ?
Although all those points are true, those aren't the.....um.....LOUDEST reasons we hear on the site.
Since when does Orange Can of Death = it costs more? As for DEXCOOL, even other "Dexclones" (very clever) are derided for sludging up your engine. And everyone has a K&N horror sotry that a friend of their local mechanic told them. And put all three on your car? Well, that thing will obviously explode once you turn your key.
While price may be your deciding point (and one I can actually respect) some of the more prevelent reasons seen on the boards aren't always based on much more than a "feeling".
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Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Originally Posted By: bigmike
I don't think anyone is convinced either. However, I've noticed the following:
1. In the Oil Filter section, FRAM is the one that gets dumped on.
2. In the Coolant section, DEXCOOL gets dumped on.
3. In the Air Filter section, K&N gets dumped on.
4. In the Oil Additives section, ZMAX gets dumped on.
One of the reasons is, all those products are more expensive then competitors.
Why should I pay more for Fram when I get similar or better filter from Purolator or Man ?
Why should I pay more for DEXCOOL when I get similar or better coolant from Peak or Zerex ?
Why should I pay a lot more for K&N when I get air filter from dealer or any other after market that filter better and no oiling is needed ?
Why should I pay $30-40 for an unproven productive Zmax when I can buy Lubromoly MOS2 for less than $5 ?
What does your argument have to do with the unfair representation these said products receive? If you have no experience with them or information to share, other than price points, I suggest there is little more to continue arguing over.
Originally Posted By: bigmike
I don't think anyone is convinced either. However, I've noticed the following:
1. In the Oil Filter section, FRAM is the one that gets dumped on.
2. In the Coolant section, DEXCOOL gets dumped on.
3. In the Air Filter section, K&N gets dumped on.
4. In the Oil Additives section, ZMAX gets dumped on.
One of the reasons is, all those products are more expensive then competitors.
Why should I pay more for Fram when I get similar or better filter from Purolator or Man ?
Why should I pay more for DEXCOOL when I get similar or better coolant from Peak or Zerex ?
Why should I pay a lot more for K&N when I get air filter from dealer or any other after market that filter better and no oiling is needed ?
Why should I pay $30-40 for an unproven productive Zmax when I can buy Lubromoly MOS2 for less than $5 ?
What does your argument have to do with the unfair representation these said products receive? If you have no experience with them or information to share, other than price points, I suggest there is little more to continue arguing over.
Originally Posted By: kr_bitog
As any air filter, K&N has his own pro and cons:
Pro:
1. Better airflow (less resistance) during low and mid rpm compared to most paper filter
2. The more you use the more it will filter better
3. There are many size for universal type so easily can convert to bigger filter that allow better airflow and higher dirt holding capacity
4. Can last very long with good maintenance
Cons:
1. in high rpm the filter media might collapse/flapping to release more dirt to engine and depends on the design it may disrupt air flow
2. The drop in filter typically has less filtering surface compared to cloth type air filter (normally used in Toyota) so
it may not really give better total air flow across all rpm
3. The filter is not good on filtering very fine dust, so engine oil getting dirtier sooner even though when you wipe the throttle body it looks clean
4. Must do DIY to clean, most workshop doesn't know how to clean, worst they will blow with compressed air that means you need to buy new filter
For me, I stop using K&N and just use OEM cloth filter and change every 20k.
This is one of the better posts I've seen in this thread.
Thanks for sharing.
As any air filter, K&N has his own pro and cons:
Pro:
1. Better airflow (less resistance) during low and mid rpm compared to most paper filter
2. The more you use the more it will filter better
3. There are many size for universal type so easily can convert to bigger filter that allow better airflow and higher dirt holding capacity
4. Can last very long with good maintenance
Cons:
1. in high rpm the filter media might collapse/flapping to release more dirt to engine and depends on the design it may disrupt air flow
2. The drop in filter typically has less filtering surface compared to cloth type air filter (normally used in Toyota) so
it may not really give better total air flow across all rpm
3. The filter is not good on filtering very fine dust, so engine oil getting dirtier sooner even though when you wipe the throttle body it looks clean
4. Must do DIY to clean, most workshop doesn't know how to clean, worst they will blow with compressed air that means you need to buy new filter
For me, I stop using K&N and just use OEM cloth filter and change every 20k.
This is one of the better posts I've seen in this thread.
Thanks for sharing.
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