210,000 miles with K&N air intake system

[Rogueman2016s]

This week I was at my local Toyota dealership getting a tire rotation on my Tundra. This 2010 Tundra with 210K miles pulled up for an oil change. Got to speaking with the owner, who was kind and shared all about his truck. Owned since new and installed a K&N cold air intake system on it when he first purchased 13 years ago. He has never had a single issue with this truck and runs great.

I personally choose to use OEM Toyota (Denso made) paper filters, but this is a lot of miles with a K&N and he loves it. Maybe we should all re-think K&N if you want to run a vehicle to high mileage. Thoughts?

I stopped liking K&N when the 2nd fast and furious movie come out.

 

[Rogueman2016s]

This week I was at my local Toyota dealership getting a tire rotation on my Tundra. This 2010 Tundra with 210K miles pulled up for an oil change. Got to speaking with the owner, who was kind and shared all about his truck. Owned since new and installed a K&N cold air intake system on it when he first purchased 13 years ago. He has never had a single issue with this truck and runs great.

I personally choose to use OEM Toyota (Denso made) paper filters, but this is a lot of miles with a K&N and he loves it. Maybe we should all re-think K&N if you want to run a vehicle to high mileage. Thoughts?

Pretty truck has it had the frame replaced?

 

[ZeeOSix]

Sorry wrong link above, see this one.

Only a "theory" with no proof through any kind of controlled testing. I don't buy into his theory, because pulsatons across the media causing the media to move around could also cause debris to dislodge from the filter.

 

[virginoil]

Only a "theory" with no proof through any kind of controlled testing. I don't buy into his theory, because pulsations across the media causing the media to move around could also cause debris to dislodge from the filter.

Yeah this is hard for me IMO to dismiss some claims because of his experience and why would he compromise his character and integrity

1. in dustier conditions K&N held up loss no power in comparison to paper filters that clogged​

2. K&N cellulose is an active filter with 4 to 6 layers sweeping back and forth to trap the dirt​

• The filter box does vibrate it sounds plausible but more evidence required to substantiate effectiveness

3. Infers the oil will bind the micron particles and hold onto these until the filter is cleaned​

• the dust particles drop out on the inlet side of the filter and cannot past due to the sweeping fibres effect

4. Smearing of oil on the inside of the filter with his initials and no dust on his initials​

• This means no microscopic particles got through based on his visual inspection

​

Maybe K&N should develop the active filter ISO 5011 version test to measure and validate the claims made by David V.​

​

 

[ZeeOSix]

Yeah this is hard for me IMO to dismiss some claims because of his experience and why would he compromise his character and integrity

1. in dustier conditions K&N held up loss no power in comparison to paper filters that clogged​

2. K&N cellulose is an active filter with 4 to 6 layers sweeping back and forth to trap the dirt​

• The filter box does vibrate it sounds plausible but more evidence required to substantiate effectiveness

3. Infers the oil will bind the micron particles and hold onto these until the filter is cleaned​

• the dust particles drop out on the inlet side of the filter and cannot past due to the sweeping fibres effect

4. Smearing of oil on the inside of the filter with his initials and no dust on his initials​

• This means no microscopic particles got through based on his visual inspection

​

Maybe K&N should develop the active filter ISO 5011 version test to measure and validate the claims made by David V.​

​

Even "experts" can be wrong and latch onto a misconception.

I don't think his "oil smearing" test is very valid. It might give an indication if the filter was really bad, but not so much if the filter was say 95% vs 99.9% efficiency. He also mentions Project Farm's filter testing and comes across like that testing was actually valid, which it really isn't.

I'd like to see some high speed video of the media under actual use in a real engine to see how much the fibers actually move. He doesn't actually know if they move like his "theory" claims. And yes, if the ISO 5011 could be done with a real engine causing the air flow vs the standard smooth ISO test airflow, then that would prove the theory to be valid or not.

Also, if this is really happening I'd think K&N would know it from their own research and testing, and make some kind of claims about it.

 

[oil pan 4]

It will rust out before the engine goes, you can use k&n air filter, fram oil filters, the cheapest supertech oil Walmart sells, and do 10,000 mile oil changes and the cab will rust off it.

But I still say "niet, my paper filter is fine".

It catastrophiclly fails iso5011 and the project farm test.

 

[ZeeOSix]

It will rust out before the engine goes, you can use k&n air filter, fram oil filters, the cheapest supertech oil Walmart sells, and do 10,000 mile oil changes and the cab will rust off it.

Depends where you live, and the definition of "engine goes". Guess vehicles used in the "rust states" better start using the bottom of the spectrum products, lol. And actually, even the Fram EG oil filter has efficiency of 95% @ 20μ, which is better in efficiency than many filters costing 2 or 3 times more.

 

[oil pan 4]

Yeah this is hard for me IMO to dismiss some claims because of his experience and why would he compromise his character and integrity

1. in dustier conditions K&N held up loss no power in comparison to paper filters that clogged​

2. K&N cellulose is an active filter with 4 to 6 layers sweeping back and forth to trap the dirt​

• The filter box does vibrate it sounds plausible but more evidence required to substantiate effectiveness

3. Infers the oil will bind the micron particles and hold onto these until the filter is cleaned​

• the dust particles drop out on the inlet side of the filter and cannot past due to the sweeping fibres effect

4. Smearing of oil on the inside of the filter with his initials and no dust on his initials​

• This means no microscopic particles got through based on his visual inspection

​

Maybe K&N should develop the active filter ISO 5011 version test to measure and validate the claims made by David V.​

​

1 I'll take the temporary loss in power that can be fixed with a filter replacement over the permanent loss of power due to worn rings and tapered cylinder.
2 rock catcher.
3 that's only about 97% true.
4 I can guarantee there's dirt inside. The smallest particle observable to the unaided human eye is about 40 micron. In theory a 40 micron silica particle could shatter into over 500 irregular shaped 5 micron particles so those are bad.
80% of road diet is smaller than 25 micron, so that's why it's hard to see, the k&n is a rock catcher so it probably gets nearly all the 40mu and larger bits.
According to ACdelco most engine wear is caused by particles 5 to 10 microns in size, other sources say 2 to 10.
As larger particles get ground up by the engine they become smaller in size and become more numerous. These newly ground up particles are closer to the ring to cylinder clearance, cam to follower and journal to bearing clearance.

 

[oil pan 4]

Only a "theory" with no proof through any kind of controlled testing. I don't buy into his theory, because pulsatons across the media causing the media to move around could also cause debris to dislodge from the filter.

Pulsations or just flooring it.
As shown on the project farm air filter test that used a k&n. The k&n released a bunch of control dirt on the "surge test".

 

[wemay]

Like most things, mountains out of molehills this K&N fear mongering. Been using them since ~1992.

 

[TiGeo]

Pulsations or just flooring it.
As shown on the project farm air filter test that used a k&n. The k&n released a bunch of control dirt on the "surge test".

Classic. His test, like the oil tests, is for show/entertainment only/is worthless on how these products perform in your car. So....BITOG BE LIKE....

 

[TiGeo]

Like most things, mountains out of molehills this K&N fear mongering. Been using them since ~1992.

It's a BITOG classic.

 

[TiGeo]

1 I'll take the temporary loss in power that can be fixed with a filter replacement over the permanent loss of power due to worn rings and tapered cylinder.
2 rock catcher.
3 that's only about 97% true.
4 I can guarantee there's dirt inside. The smallest particle observable to the unaided human eye is about 40 micron. In theory a 40 micron silica particle could shatter into over 500 irregular shaped 5 micron particles so those are bad.
80% of road diet is smaller than 25 micron, so that's why it's hard to see, the k&n is a rock catcher so it probably gets nearly all the 40mu and larger bits.
According to ACdelco most engine wear is caused by particles 5 to 10 microns in size, other sources say 2 to 10.
As larger particles get ground up by the engine they become smaller in size and become more numerous. These newly ground up particles are closer to the ring to cylinder clearance, cam to follower and journal to bearing clearance.

I believe the term "rock catcher" goes against BITOG's rules for this sub-forum. I'll thank you in advance for ceasing to use it.

Still waiting on the "worn rings and tapered cylinders" on any vehicle I've owned that I run these in (all of them). BITOG fear-mongering level 11 unlocked.

 

[gman2304]

My old Chevy 5.3 just rolled over 244,000 miles by using paper air filters exclusively! IDK….

 

[TiGeo]

My old Chevy 5.3 just rolled over 244,000 miles by using paper air filters exclusively! IDK….

And for everyone one of these andectotal stories, there are ones where you replace "paper" with "K&N". IDK....

 

[gman2304]

And for everyone one of these andectotal stories, there are ones where you replace "paper" with "K&N". IDK....

Got me to wondering how many paper filters are sold compared to K&N…… ……IDK…

 

[TiGeo]

Got me to wondering how many paper filters are sold compared to K&N…… ……IDK…

One bazillion more haha. It's still the same thing though, where are all these destroyed cars form running K&Ns? You'd hear it by now and you don't...just like the phantom high-SiO2 UOAs. K&Ns drop efficiency to gain flow, it's simple and yes, that means you get more fine dirt in your engine but I do'nt see where it's making any difference. So if you want to max out flow, get a K&N and get beat up on BITOG.

 

[wemay]

Got me to wondering how many paper filters are sold compared to K&N…… ……IDK…

The fact that paper filters work great (and everyone knows they do) is not the argument. unlike your post, many take potshots at K&N with terms like "rock catchers" etc. which are not warranted.

 

[TiGeo]

The fact that paper filters work great (and everyone knows they do) is not the argument. unlike your post, many take potshots at K&N with terms like "rock catchers" etc. which are not warranted.

The comment should go like this but never does:

"If you'd like to sacrifice some filtration efficiency for flow, K&Ns work great. If not/daily driving/not into the performance thing, paper filters are the easy choice."

 

[twX]

And for everyone one of these andectotal stories, there are ones where you replace "paper" with "K&N". IDK....

I think what most people are missing when comparing anecdotes is that the ambient dust concentration in the air has a much greater effect on how much dust an engine ingests than the choice of air filter does.

There was a study done in Arizona that showed that 1,000 km of typical driving on unpaved roads resulted in the same amount of dust ingestion as 375,000 km of paved road driving. In the paved road scenario, any air filter would be fine. A pair of pantyhose would probably do an acceptable job. In really dusty conditions, filtration efficiency really matters. Offroading forums are littered with examples of dusted engines caused by poor air filtration.