For curiosity-0w20 dino ever available?
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Originally Posted By: addyguy
Closest you would come is a 0W-20 blend - you have to some 'synthetic' (group III) portion to make the spread.
Thanks,I knew of the blend.I thought I read there was one or two dino's out there.I guess not.
Not interested in using an 0w20 dino.Just curious if there was any ever available.
Closest you would come is a 0W-20 blend - you have to some 'synthetic' (group III) portion to make the spread.
Thanks,I knew of the blend.I thought I read there was one or two dino's out there.I guess not.
Not interested in using an 0w20 dino.Just curious if there was any ever available.
Originally Posted By: Colt
Originally Posted By: addyguy
Closest you would come is a 0W-20 blend - you have to some 'synthetic' (group III) portion to make the spread.
Not intersted in using an 0w20 dino.Just curious if there was nay available.
Originally Posted By: addyguy
Closest you would come is a 0W-20 blend - you have to some 'synthetic' (group III) portion to make the spread.
Not intersted in using an 0w20 dino.Just curious if there was nay available.
Originally Posted By: addyguy
Closest you would come is a 0W-20 blend - you have to some 'synthetic' (group III) portion to make the spread.
Can you give some supporting documentation for this? I've read the opposite. I've read (on this forum) that it would be technically possible to make a group II 0w-20, but you would have to make some silly compromises, like including lots of viscosity improvers. It's not that it's impossible, it's just that it doesn't many sense.
Closest you would come is a 0W-20 blend - you have to some 'synthetic' (group III) portion to make the spread.
Can you give some supporting documentation for this? I've read the opposite. I've read (on this forum) that it would be technically possible to make a group II 0w-20, but you would have to make some silly compromises, like including lots of viscosity improvers. It's not that it's impossible, it's just that it doesn't many sense.
I think you've just answered your own question,
"it doesn't make sense" to do so.
"it doesn't make sense" to do so.
Since group III is dino then yes, they are available. Prob better off with a 5w-20 if you dont need the arctic cold flow. You dont get 0W in a 6 dollar lube without compromise. The good thing about 5w-20 is its as stable (or moreso) than 10w-30.
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
I think you've just answered your own question,
"it doesn't make sense" to do so.
err... what?
The question I asked was, "Can you give some supporting documentation for this?" What I stated was just what I read on this site, which may or may not be true. I have not answered my own question.
I think you've just answered your own question,
"it doesn't make sense" to do so.
err... what?
The question I asked was, "Can you give some supporting documentation for this?" What I stated was just what I read on this site, which may or may not be true. I have not answered my own question.
I'm afraid I don't have any official sources to back up what I said - I was simply parroting what I've read on here many times - that when you get into 0W oils - be they 0W-20, 0W-30..etc..they 'have' to have a full-synthetic component (group-III, PAO..etc..) to have the cold-flow properties to make the 0W rating.
As for 'what is possible'....well, yes, anything is possible, but you were asking if there were any available 0W-20 conventionals, not if the 'could' be made.
As for 'what is possible'....well, yes, anything is possible, but you were asking if there were any available 0W-20 conventionals, not if the 'could' be made.
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
Prob better off with a 5w-20 if you dont need the arctic cold flow. You dont get 0W in a 6 dollar lube without compromise. The good thing about 5w-20 is its as stable (or moreso) than 10w-30.
A common misconception.
The reality is the 0W-20 grade is not so much about cold flow with the companies that specify it but ultra low viscosity even at room temps as a result of their inherently higher VIs. And in that regard they can be dramatically lighter, as much as 50% or more than conventional 5W-20s.
And you're right shear is not a problem with 20wt oils, any 20wt oil including the highest VI 20wt you can buy, the Toyota Brand 0W-20.
Prob better off with a 5w-20 if you dont need the arctic cold flow. You dont get 0W in a 6 dollar lube without compromise. The good thing about 5w-20 is its as stable (or moreso) than 10w-30.
A common misconception.
The reality is the 0W-20 grade is not so much about cold flow with the companies that specify it but ultra low viscosity even at room temps as a result of their inherently higher VIs. And in that regard they can be dramatically lighter, as much as 50% or more than conventional 5W-20s.
And you're right shear is not a problem with 20wt oils, any 20wt oil including the highest VI 20wt you can buy, the Toyota Brand 0W-20.
Cat:
I love to see specs on a 0w-20 that is 50% less viscous than a 5w-20 at 20 deg C. And not wildly interpolated or extrapolated data. I dont believe it exists. You are correct in that I think most oils made from moderate VI basestocks into ultra high VI product are NOT stable and are dirtier than something "saner". Dont task an oil to do a block heaters job if you dont have to, and dont chose a low temp oil if you will not test its limits. AFA compromises on the spec sheet, Most 0W20 grades Ive researched have much lower NOACK and FP than their 5w cousins. I'll happily stick with MC-SS for now unless someone can show me something better for a similar cost.
I love to see specs on a 0w-20 that is 50% less viscous than a 5w-20 at 20 deg C. And not wildly interpolated or extrapolated data. I dont believe it exists. You are correct in that I think most oils made from moderate VI basestocks into ultra high VI product are NOT stable and are dirtier than something "saner". Dont task an oil to do a block heaters job if you dont have to, and dont chose a low temp oil if you will not test its limits. AFA compromises on the spec sheet, Most 0W20 grades Ive researched have much lower NOACK and FP than their 5w cousins. I'll happily stick with MC-SS for now unless someone can show me something better for a similar cost.
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I didn't say the Toyota 0W-20 was 50% lighter specifically at 20C but since you've questioned it lets take a look.
The Toyota KV100 is 8.8cSt, KV40 is 39.3 cSt.
QS Peak Performance 5W-20 has a typical 151 VI for the grade.
It's KV100 is 8.1 cSt, KV40 is 45.8 cSt.
Plug the numbers into a viscosity calculator as follows:
http://www.widman.biz/English/Calculators/Graph.html
The results are: QS is 27% heavier at 20C.
53% heavier at 10C and 75% heavier at freezing 0C.
Of course as temps continue to drop, the low VI continues to become thicker at a faster rate to the high VI Toyota oil.
The reality is even worse than that if both oils have the same virgin HTHS vis of 2.6cP as the Toyota kinematic values are inflated.
The synthetic Toyota oil shears no more likely less than most 5W-20 dinos and Toyota recommends a 10,000 OCI for the oil in their own vehicles.
But since you mentioned MC 5W-20 Syn-Blend lets look at that.
KV100 8.7cSt, KV40 50cSt. VI 164 not bad for a 5W-20 syn blend.
It's 51% heavier than the Toyota oil at 20C and more than 90% heavier at 0C. Not very impressive is it?
As far as NOACK percentages are concerned, a 1% or 2% difference is insignificant and all full syn oils are clean.
The Toyota KV100 is 8.8cSt, KV40 is 39.3 cSt.
QS Peak Performance 5W-20 has a typical 151 VI for the grade.
It's KV100 is 8.1 cSt, KV40 is 45.8 cSt.
Plug the numbers into a viscosity calculator as follows:
http://www.widman.biz/English/Calculators/Graph.html
The results are: QS is 27% heavier at 20C.
53% heavier at 10C and 75% heavier at freezing 0C.
Of course as temps continue to drop, the low VI continues to become thicker at a faster rate to the high VI Toyota oil.
The reality is even worse than that if both oils have the same virgin HTHS vis of 2.6cP as the Toyota kinematic values are inflated.
The synthetic Toyota oil shears no more likely less than most 5W-20 dinos and Toyota recommends a 10,000 OCI for the oil in their own vehicles.
But since you mentioned MC 5W-20 Syn-Blend lets look at that.
KV100 8.7cSt, KV40 50cSt. VI 164 not bad for a 5W-20 syn blend.
It's 51% heavier than the Toyota oil at 20C and more than 90% heavier at 0C. Not very impressive is it?
As far as NOACK percentages are concerned, a 1% or 2% difference is insignificant and all full syn oils are clean.
Correction. MC's KV40 vis is 47.5cSt (Castrol GTX has the KV40 spec' of 50cSt).
That translates into an oil 38% heavier at 20C vs Toyota and 68% at OC.
That translates into an oil 38% heavier at 20C vs Toyota and 68% at OC.
I'm following your calculations cat, why use the 5-20 blend in the 96 BMW when you could be using a 0-20? You must not use the car in the winter?
As I mentioned about wild extrapolation, I would need to see actual direct measurements. Has the widman cal been substantially verified with various base oils and mixtures? I too would like to see better low temp performance on my ungaraged cars, but not possibly risking poor lubricity with a PAO base. Cold flow is one aspect of lubrication, but I would like to see specific data from sequence testing on cold wear. Unfortunately, currently API give too much latitude in certification using "average wear" on these tests and qualitative assessment loopholes in the merit/demerit system; and; this data is held close to the vest and not publised out side the company. So, out of luck chosing and oil by spec without backing data. Just the way oil co's want it.
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Originally Posted By: steve20
I'm following your calculations cat, why use the 5-20 blend in the 96 BMW when you could be using a 0-20? You must not use the car in the winter?
The 5W-20 blend in the Bimmer is simply using up the least appealing 20wt oil that I had in my stash; oil that was given to me. What's actually in the sump currently is close to a 30wt as I topped up this summer with some 5W-50; again using up what's in my stash.
I really like the Toyota 0W-20 oil; it has the lowest start-up viscosity of any oil I've tried based on oil pressure. It's even 25% lighter than the Honda 0W-20 (VI 200) I'm currently running in one of my cars on start-up at 20C-25C. But it would be a bit light for summer use in the Bimmer. An ideal blend to give me a lightest possible 0W-30 on start-up would be something like a 3 to 1 blend of Toyota 0W-20 and RL 0W-40 (VI 197).
I'm following your calculations cat, why use the 5-20 blend in the 96 BMW when you could be using a 0-20? You must not use the car in the winter?
The 5W-20 blend in the Bimmer is simply using up the least appealing 20wt oil that I had in my stash; oil that was given to me. What's actually in the sump currently is close to a 30wt as I topped up this summer with some 5W-50; again using up what's in my stash.
I really like the Toyota 0W-20 oil; it has the lowest start-up viscosity of any oil I've tried based on oil pressure. It's even 25% lighter than the Honda 0W-20 (VI 200) I'm currently running in one of my cars on start-up at 20C-25C. But it would be a bit light for summer use in the Bimmer. An ideal blend to give me a lightest possible 0W-30 on start-up would be something like a 3 to 1 blend of Toyota 0W-20 and RL 0W-40 (VI 197).
ARCOgraphite, I can appreciate your skepticizm in relying on kinematic viscosity calculators. The only way to compare oil viscosities accurately is with an oil pressure gauge in an actual running engine; that is the bottom line of what we're trying to predict.
Having said that, they are a guide and give an indication of what you can expect as long as you don't extrapolate out too far.
Richard Widman says it's good down to about -15C but I take a more conservative approach and limit the comparison down to about 0C. And as you mentioned, if you're comparing oils with widely different base oil chemistries you must make allowance for that as well.
Having said that, they are a guide and give an indication of what you can expect as long as you don't extrapolate out too far.
Richard Widman says it's good down to about -15C but I take a more conservative approach and limit the comparison down to about 0C. And as you mentioned, if you're comparing oils with widely different base oil chemistries you must make allowance for that as well.
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