For those that think the LS series engines make more power than the Modular Fords that is flat wrong. There are several of people that have made over 2300hp using stock block bored & stroked 4.6 Modular motors. To my knowledge there is no LS based engine that has even come close. The LS series is a great platform, easily the best V8 engine GM has ever come out with, but in this instance, the technological superiority of 4-valve heads, multiple cams that can be timed on the fly wins out.
For all the 5.0L naysayers
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Originally Posted By: JasonC
For those that think the LS series engines make more power than the Modular Fords that is flat wrong. There are several of people that have made over 2300hp using stock block bored & stroked 4.6 Modular motors. To my knowledge there is no LS based engine that has even come close. The LS series is a great platform, easily the best V8 engine GM has ever come out with, but in this instance, the technological superiority of 4-valve heads, multiple cams that can be timed on the fly wins out.
It took 70 posts, but we all knew where it was going.
Explain to me what a *race car* has to do with this discussion?
:sarcasm on:
If you want to travel down that road, Pratt & Miller used production GM blocks in their LeMans winning race cars. I don't see any Ford modular motors competing at that level and winning. Thus, the LS engine is better. YOU'RE the one who's just flat wrong. :huff, huff, puff, puff:
:sarcasm off:
See how ridiculous that sounds? It about equals the intelligence of middle schoolers magazine racing during lunch.
Just like the 2,300 HP modular Ford, it has nothing to do with the price of tea in China. It is a ridiculous argument, using purpose built race cars as discussion points.
For those that think the LS series engines make more power than the Modular Fords that is flat wrong. There are several of people that have made over 2300hp using stock block bored & stroked 4.6 Modular motors. To my knowledge there is no LS based engine that has even come close. The LS series is a great platform, easily the best V8 engine GM has ever come out with, but in this instance, the technological superiority of 4-valve heads, multiple cams that can be timed on the fly wins out.
It took 70 posts, but we all knew where it was going.
Explain to me what a *race car* has to do with this discussion?
:sarcasm on:
If you want to travel down that road, Pratt & Miller used production GM blocks in their LeMans winning race cars. I don't see any Ford modular motors competing at that level and winning. Thus, the LS engine is better. YOU'RE the one who's just flat wrong. :huff, huff, puff, puff:
:sarcasm off:
See how ridiculous that sounds? It about equals the intelligence of middle schoolers magazine racing during lunch.
Just like the 2,300 HP modular Ford, it has nothing to do with the price of tea in China. It is a ridiculous argument, using purpose built race cars as discussion points.
If anything, the laptop tuning is easier IMHO.
Totally agree!
Totally agree!
People were bringing up power level in general but, if you wish to stick to factory offerings then I point you to the 2013 Shelby GT500. Most powerful production V8 made. And before you say its not fair, it has a supercharger, the ZR1 is supercharged and the GT500 still makes more power with less displacement.
Originally Posted By: MrHorspwer
Originally Posted By: JasonC
For those that think the LS series engines make more power than the Modular Fords that is flat wrong. There are several of people that have made over 2300hp using stock block bored & stroked 4.6 Modular motors. To my knowledge there is no LS based engine that has even come close. The LS series is a great platform, easily the best V8 engine GM has ever come out with, but in this instance, the technological superiority of 4-valve heads, multiple cams that can be timed on the fly wins out.
It took 70 posts, but we all knew where it was going.
Explain to me what a *race car* has to do with this discussion?
:sarcasm on:
If you want to travel down that road, Pratt & Miller used production GM blocks in their LeMans winning race cars. I don't see any Ford modular motors competing at that level and winning. Thus, the LS engine is better. YOU'RE the one who's just flat wrong. :huff, huff, puff, puff:
:sarcasm off:
See how ridiculous that sounds? It about equals the intelligence of middle schoolers magazine racing during lunch.
Just like the 2,300 HP modular Ford, it has nothing to do with the price of tea in China. It is a ridiculous argument, using purpose built race cars as discussion points.
Originally Posted By: MrHorspwer
Originally Posted By: JasonC
For those that think the LS series engines make more power than the Modular Fords that is flat wrong. There are several of people that have made over 2300hp using stock block bored & stroked 4.6 Modular motors. To my knowledge there is no LS based engine that has even come close. The LS series is a great platform, easily the best V8 engine GM has ever come out with, but in this instance, the technological superiority of 4-valve heads, multiple cams that can be timed on the fly wins out.
It took 70 posts, but we all knew where it was going.
Explain to me what a *race car* has to do with this discussion?
:sarcasm on:
If you want to travel down that road, Pratt & Miller used production GM blocks in their LeMans winning race cars. I don't see any Ford modular motors competing at that level and winning. Thus, the LS engine is better. YOU'RE the one who's just flat wrong. :huff, huff, puff, puff:
:sarcasm off:
See how ridiculous that sounds? It about equals the intelligence of middle schoolers magazine racing during lunch.
Just like the 2,300 HP modular Ford, it has nothing to do with the price of tea in China. It is a ridiculous argument, using purpose built race cars as discussion points.
Originally Posted By: Nick R
... "in the good old days of pushrods, carbs, distributors, and manuals"
Hey! One of these things is NOT like the others!
... "in the good old days of pushrods, carbs, distributors, and manuals"
Hey! One of these things is NOT like the others!
some great points. But a whole lot of misinformation as usual.
Just remember, when you run a motor to extinction a few DOZEN times you can get back to me on how you feel about complex engine designs. I've done this repeatedly for four decades.
Of course newer cars are more reliable than older cars, I don't even think the OP remembers what he was crowing about in his first post. The simple fact is the 5.0 is not the best motor in the world. Just a real good one in a very crowded field!
Just like Chris said earlier, take a breath and realize there's still a place for pushrods at the hotrodders table.
And I still believe any real experienced mechanic will tell you why you want simple over complex when you are WAY down the road.
Just remember, when you run a motor to extinction a few DOZEN times you can get back to me on how you feel about complex engine designs. I've done this repeatedly for four decades.
Of course newer cars are more reliable than older cars, I don't even think the OP remembers what he was crowing about in his first post. The simple fact is the 5.0 is not the best motor in the world. Just a real good one in a very crowded field!
Just like Chris said earlier, take a breath and realize there's still a place for pushrods at the hotrodders table.
And I still believe any real experienced mechanic will tell you why you want simple over complex when you are WAY down the road.
Originally Posted By: JasonC
People were bringing up power level in general but, if you wish to stick to factory offerings then I point you to the 2013 Shelby GT500. Most powerful production V8 made. And before you say its not fair, it has a supercharger, the ZR1 is supercharged and the GT500 still makes more power with less displacement.
Do you think I dislike the Ford modular engine? I don't. 662 HP in any car, in any displacement, is awesome. So is the 638 HP you get in an LS9 and the 580 HP from the LSA. Accessible and massive performance, with a 100,000 mile warranty. Best of all, there is more power on the table for those who seek it. I'll bet 700+ HP will be an easy find on the GT500.
People were bringing up power level in general but, if you wish to stick to factory offerings then I point you to the 2013 Shelby GT500. Most powerful production V8 made. And before you say its not fair, it has a supercharger, the ZR1 is supercharged and the GT500 still makes more power with less displacement.
Do you think I dislike the Ford modular engine? I don't. 662 HP in any car, in any displacement, is awesome. So is the 638 HP you get in an LS9 and the 580 HP from the LSA. Accessible and massive performance, with a 100,000 mile warranty. Best of all, there is more power on the table for those who seek it. I'll bet 700+ HP will be an easy find on the GT500.
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
So who are you to determine and dictate what is needed in a passenger car today? Where's YOUR engine that makes 400+HP and gets this sort of fuel mileage and retains this sort of driveability?
I was just saying as an old hotrodder (and a ret. automotive component engineer with a BSME) I dont see the need for the 400HP on the street. I would hazard a guess I drive a car harder than most anyone on here, and I was never be able to use the 280hp of my old 01 bullit SOHC regularly - never mind 400hp. Drag race or closed course racing - have at it; But I think you guys would have more fun day to day with the 300v6 in the stang.
some racer pit points:
-The dohc 8 is Ginormous in the bay vs. a cam in block of same displacement.
- overkill: On your complexity math you have to count 4 cams four times.
- The DOHC cams have finger follower rockers - 32 of 'em.
- engineering wise: You can run MUCH lighter valvespring on 4v heads due to the low mass VT. BUT pentheads are notorious for distorting and cracking between ex valves - hope ford did their thermo simulation and real world homework.
- 6 ft long timing chains? I'll take a 2 footer. - Or better yet: belts on a dry timing system to GREATLY reduce oil foaming.
Head cutaway from mustang daily article:
Now- If I won a cotyote 'stang with a stick in a sweepstakes givaway would I drive it - you betcha! But I'd end up in the hoosegow for reckless endangerment with one week. Its Too fast.
Just bring me clean underwear and a carton of cigs now and then.
So who are you to determine and dictate what is needed in a passenger car today? Where's YOUR engine that makes 400+HP and gets this sort of fuel mileage and retains this sort of driveability?
I was just saying as an old hotrodder (and a ret. automotive component engineer with a BSME) I dont see the need for the 400HP on the street. I would hazard a guess I drive a car harder than most anyone on here, and I was never be able to use the 280hp of my old 01 bullit SOHC regularly - never mind 400hp. Drag race or closed course racing - have at it; But I think you guys would have more fun day to day with the 300v6 in the stang.
some racer pit points:
-The dohc 8 is Ginormous in the bay vs. a cam in block of same displacement.
- overkill: On your complexity math you have to count 4 cams four times.
- The DOHC cams have finger follower rockers - 32 of 'em.
- engineering wise: You can run MUCH lighter valvespring on 4v heads due to the low mass VT. BUT pentheads are notorious for distorting and cracking between ex valves - hope ford did their thermo simulation and real world homework.
- 6 ft long timing chains? I'll take a 2 footer. - Or better yet: belts on a dry timing system to GREATLY reduce oil foaming.
Head cutaway from mustang daily article:
Now- If I won a cotyote 'stang with a stick in a sweepstakes givaway would I drive it - you betcha! But I'd end up in the hoosegow for reckless endangerment with one week. Its Too fast.
Just bring me clean underwear and a carton of cigs now and then.
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By that logic, you also don't "need" things like a radio, air conditioning, or windows. No, I don't need 400+HP on the street. DO I WANT it? HECK YES! My wife regularly drives her 750+HP Grand National, I regularly drive my 500+HP Cadillac.
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Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
By that logic, you also don't "need" things like a radio, air conditioning, or windows. No, I don't need 400+HP on the street. DO I WANT it? HECK YES! My wife regularly drives her 750+HP Grand National, I regularly drive my 500+HP Cadillac.
Amen
By that logic, you also don't "need" things like a radio, air conditioning, or windows. No, I don't need 400+HP on the street. DO I WANT it? HECK YES! My wife regularly drives her 750+HP Grand National, I regularly drive my 500+HP Cadillac.
Amen
X2, "enough" is never enough!
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
The simple fact is the 5.0 is not the best motor in the world. Just a real good one in a very crowded field!
I agree, the 5.8 4V is clearly the best as-delivered, mass production "hot-rod" V8 in the world.
Quote:
And I still believe any real experienced mechanic will tell you why you want simple over complex when you are WAY down the road.
Have you ever torn down a Mod motor, have you ever timed one?
The simple fact is the 5.0 is not the best motor in the world. Just a real good one in a very crowded field!
I agree, the 5.8 4V is clearly the best as-delivered, mass production "hot-rod" V8 in the world.
Quote:
And I still believe any real experienced mechanic will tell you why you want simple over complex when you are WAY down the road.
Have you ever torn down a Mod motor, have you ever timed one?
^^^He he, we all have our opinions. That one is most certainly a top 5 contender.
Re: Ford Modulars, yes. My son is really into them, and has had CVPI's, MGM's, and a ton of old Lincolns (still has on 06). We tore into two of them due to them being old and neglected. Dirt simple to fix, easy to time the OHC, and I STILL say if I can avoid all that and get reliable HP I'll do it!
IMO at 200k miles almost all engines look the same... except mine.
Re: Ford Modulars, yes. My son is really into them, and has had CVPI's, MGM's, and a ton of old Lincolns (still has on 06). We tore into two of them due to them being old and neglected. Dirt simple to fix, easy to time the OHC, and I STILL say if I can avoid all that and get reliable HP I'll do it!
IMO at 200k miles almost all engines look the same... except mine.
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
We tore into two of them due to them being old and neglected. Dirt simple to fix, easy to time the OHC, and I STILL say if I can avoid all that and get reliable HP I'll do it!
OK, I just wanted to make sure you aren't one of the guys that think Modulars are some nightmare to work on and time.
PS, they do make reliable HP.
We tore into two of them due to them being old and neglected. Dirt simple to fix, easy to time the OHC, and I STILL say if I can avoid all that and get reliable HP I'll do it!
OK, I just wanted to make sure you aren't one of the guys that think Modulars are some nightmare to work on and time.
PS, they do make reliable HP.
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Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
Ever done exhaust manifold gaskets on a 4.6 Mustang? That will turn anyone off to Modular engines INSTANTLY! I recall a dealer will charge about $1600 (that's not a typo) for ONE SIDE!
You recollect incorrectly, it is no where near that much at an honest dealer.
I had my one manifold on my Expedition replaced, and all new stainless studs installed for around $700 including the price of the new manifold, gasket and studs.
Ever done exhaust manifold gaskets on a 4.6 Mustang? That will turn anyone off to Modular engines INSTANTLY! I recall a dealer will charge about $1600 (that's not a typo) for ONE SIDE!
You recollect incorrectly, it is no where near that much at an honest dealer.
I had my one manifold on my Expedition replaced, and all new stainless studs installed for around $700 including the price of the new manifold, gasket and studs.
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
Ever done exhaust manifold gaskets on a 4.6 Mustang? That will turn anyone off to Modular engines INSTANTLY! I recall a dealer will charge about $1600 (that's not a typo) for ONE SIDE!
I've personally installed at least 15 set of long tubes on 4.6 Mustangs, 2V and 4V, including 1-7/8" ARHs on a 4V with a Maximum Motorsports k-frame in place (worst case scenario, other than with stock k-frame in place).
I can have a set of 1-5/8" Kooks on a 4V in about 3 hours, including pulling the stock manifolds. They aren't bad. Not as easy as a 302, but not bad if you know what you are doing.
So you are telling me the book time for changing exhaust manifold gaskets on one side is ~16 hours? [censored]
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
I had my one manifold on my Expedition replaced, and all new stainless studs installed for around $700 including the price of the new manifold, gasket and studs.
Honestly, that seems way high to me considering the job is pretty easy on the trucks. Well, it would be high around here since shop rates are around $95/hr. Remove the tire and wheel well liner and the exhaust manifold is pretty wide open on the trucks.
EDIT, I take that back. I remembered the stainless stud kit is almost $200 by itself.
Ever done exhaust manifold gaskets on a 4.6 Mustang? That will turn anyone off to Modular engines INSTANTLY! I recall a dealer will charge about $1600 (that's not a typo) for ONE SIDE!
I've personally installed at least 15 set of long tubes on 4.6 Mustangs, 2V and 4V, including 1-7/8" ARHs on a 4V with a Maximum Motorsports k-frame in place (worst case scenario, other than with stock k-frame in place).
I can have a set of 1-5/8" Kooks on a 4V in about 3 hours, including pulling the stock manifolds. They aren't bad. Not as easy as a 302, but not bad if you know what you are doing.
So you are telling me the book time for changing exhaust manifold gaskets on one side is ~16 hours? [censored]
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
I had my one manifold on my Expedition replaced, and all new stainless studs installed for around $700 including the price of the new manifold, gasket and studs.
Honestly, that seems way high to me considering the job is pretty easy on the trucks. Well, it would be high around here since shop rates are around $95/hr. Remove the tire and wheel well liner and the exhaust manifold is pretty wide open on the trucks.
EDIT, I take that back. I remembered the stainless stud kit is almost $200 by itself.
An interesting point is that the old 5.0L and some of the LS engines fit into a Miata. So for tight applications, the overhead cam V8's aren't an option, even if they can make more power...
Also I think I read that the short block all aluminum LS motor was only 20-30lb heavier than the short iron block miata motors. So you can triple your HP without wrecking the weight distribution as well.
Also I think I read that the short block all aluminum LS motor was only 20-30lb heavier than the short iron block miata motors. So you can triple your HP without wrecking the weight distribution as well.
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Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
Ever done exhaust manifold gaskets on a 4.6 Mustang? That will turn anyone off to Modular engines INSTANTLY! I recall a dealer will charge about $1600 (that's not a typo) for ONE SIDE!
I've personally installed at least 15 set of long tubes on 4.6 Mustangs, 2V and 4V, including 1-7/8" ARHs on a 4V with a Maximum Motorsports k-frame in place (worst case scenario, other than with stock k-frame in place).
I can have a set of 1-5/8" Kooks on a 4V in about 3 hours, including pulling the stock manifolds. They aren't bad. Not as easy as a 302, but not bad if you know what you are doing.
So you are telling me the book time for changing exhaust manifold gaskets on one side is ~16 hours? [censored]
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
I had my one manifold on my Expedition replaced, and all new stainless studs installed for around $700 including the price of the new manifold, gasket and studs.
Honestly, that seems way high to me considering the job is pretty easy on the trucks. Well, it would be high around here since shop rates are around $95/hr. Remove the tire and wheel well liner and the exhaust manifold is pretty wide open on the trucks.
EDIT, I take that back. I remembered the stainless stud kit is almost $200 by itself.
Yes, and I had 4 studs broken off in the block that had to be extracted. The price was pretty reasonable.
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
Ever done exhaust manifold gaskets on a 4.6 Mustang? That will turn anyone off to Modular engines INSTANTLY! I recall a dealer will charge about $1600 (that's not a typo) for ONE SIDE!
I've personally installed at least 15 set of long tubes on 4.6 Mustangs, 2V and 4V, including 1-7/8" ARHs on a 4V with a Maximum Motorsports k-frame in place (worst case scenario, other than with stock k-frame in place).
I can have a set of 1-5/8" Kooks on a 4V in about 3 hours, including pulling the stock manifolds. They aren't bad. Not as easy as a 302, but not bad if you know what you are doing.
So you are telling me the book time for changing exhaust manifold gaskets on one side is ~16 hours? [censored]
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
I had my one manifold on my Expedition replaced, and all new stainless studs installed for around $700 including the price of the new manifold, gasket and studs.
Honestly, that seems way high to me considering the job is pretty easy on the trucks. Well, it would be high around here since shop rates are around $95/hr. Remove the tire and wheel well liner and the exhaust manifold is pretty wide open on the trucks.
EDIT, I take that back. I remembered the stainless stud kit is almost $200 by itself.
Yes, and I had 4 studs broken off in the block that had to be extracted. The price was pretty reasonable.
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