Flat tappet wear, need a new oil

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
Is the average API SM oil (especially a conventional one) really inadequate? His cam wear suggests it is. Even if an SM/GF-4 oil "should" be adequate this application certainly differs from a modern engine.


SM would probably be adequate if the engine had normal spring rates (under 200lbf).

Again, the cost of oil and speculative fear factor on the cat is chump change compared to the investment in the engine to date.

Use Dominator 10w-30 and worry about the sun running out of hydrogen.

 

[kevm14]

I may have been present when he first fired it up and I am pretty sure he followed some sort of first-run procedure. I don't know for sure but I think he would have also used assembly lube. I also distinctly remember him worrying about obtaining the proper lifter rotation so he was certainly paying some attention to the valvetrain.

Rotella T conventional seems good, probably 10W-30, though there are obviously competitors (Delvac, Delo...). So no reason to go synthetic then?

 

[Robenstein]

Synthetic like Rotella T/T6 will be a little better in harsh environments and flow better in cold temps. It will also probably clean a bit better.

Not needed if you are only going to go 3-5k on the oil changes.

 

[mechtech2]

kev - The break in is crucial. A break in lube must be applied to the cam lobes. A break in additive is also a good idea.
For general availability, the diesel engine oils seem pretty good for regular use after that.
Can you back off the spring pressures? Use as little as necessary for the RPM that are expected.

And if you get that cam reground and hardened, they have to know if it is for rollers or flat tappets. The ramp profile and the tip of the lobe is different.

 

[Quest]

Originally Posted By: mechtech2
kev - The break in is crucial. A break in lube must be applied to the cam lobes. A break in additive is also a good idea.
For general availability, the diesel engine oils seem pretty good for regular use after that.
Can you back off the spring pressures? Use as little as necessary for the RPM that are expected.

And if you get that cam reground and hardened, they have to know if it is for rollers or flat tappets. The ramp profile and the tip of the lobe is different.

 

[Nick R]

Might be a good application for Brad Penn 10W-30

 

[marc1]

Originally Posted By: kevm14
My solution, if it were my project, would be to seek out a competent cam re-grinder to fix the wear problem (292 cams are very hard to come by) and have the cam lobe surfaces hardened so he can switch to roller lifters, and not worry about this anymore (and free up a few HP in the process).


This is not even feasible. The camshaft design and materials are completely different. However, you may find a grinder that will make you a new roller but that will be very expensive. Fortunately, though, the lifters are regular Chevrolet. However I personally wouldn't go this route.

If you really think this wear is low ZDDP related any readily available diesel oil will be fine or get a special ZDDP oil (as suggested). Not all the ZDDP oils are over-ZDDP'd hype oils or boutique oils. You can buy regular off the shelf Valvoline VR1 which would be fine.

 

[doitmyself]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Quote:
Is the average API SM oil (especially a conventional one) really inadequate? His cam wear suggests it is. Even if an SM/GF-4 oil "should" be adequate this application certainly differs from a modern engine.


SM would probably be adequate if the engine had normal spring rates (under 200lbf).

Again, the cost of oil and speculative fear factor on the cat is chump change compared to the investment in the engine to date.

Use Dominator 10w-30 and worry about the sun running out of hydrogen.


Sorry to intrude here, but can Gary's statement be explained more.....does this apparant flat tappet wear problem with SM oils only apply to modded engines, those with stronger springs? A "regular" OEM flat tappet engine should be o.k. with SM oils?

Thank you.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: doitmyself
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Quote:
Is the average API SM oil (especially a conventional one) really inadequate? His cam wear suggests it is. Even if an SM/GF-4 oil "should" be adequate this application certainly differs from a modern engine.


SM would probably be adequate if the engine had normal spring rates (under 200lbf).

Again, the cost of oil and speculative fear factor on the cat is chump change compared to the investment in the engine to date.

Use Dominator 10w-30 and worry about the sun running out of hydrogen.


Sorry to intrude here, but can Gary's statement be explained more.....does this apparant flat tappet wear problem with SM oils only apply to modded engines, those with stronger springs? A "regular" OEM flat tappet engine should be o.k. with SM oils?

Thank you.


A stock engine should be fine with SM oils. The search function is very limited unfortunately but it has been discussed. For a stock engine, all oils are backwards compatable, so a car calling for SF oil that is still on the road will be fine running SM oil. At least that is what I've read. I have a flat tappet Ford engine that is the cousin to the Chevy 292 which is running SM oil with no problems. OTOH it is a stock engine, if I did mods to it I would be adding Redline Break in Oil additive to the oil at each OCI.

 

[Jaymus]

Listen, it's not like you have some hopped up cam.

An oil like Rotella-T 5W-40 fits the bill perfectly. Plenty of Z/P for a mild cam.

 

[JT1]

When that engine came out ZDP levels were lower than they are today.

 

[Robenstein]

Originally Posted By: JT1
When that engine came out ZDP levels were lower than they are today.



In 1962 I would think the levels would be higher since mechanical solid lifers where much more common in engines.

 

[wiswind]

What about Redline oil?....AFTER the proper break-in process?
I seem to remember reading a few things about Redline and ZDDP specific to flat tappet applications.
I am running Redline oils in my (non-flat tappet) OBDII vehicles and have no concerns about the catalytic converters in them.

 

[mechtech2]

Originally Posted By: Jaymus
Listen, it's not like you have some hopped up cam.

An oil like Rotella-T 5W-40 fits the bill perfectly. Plenty of Z/P for a mild cam.


Actually, he DOES have a hopped up cam and springs!

 

[Trvlr500]

Considering where you live I would go with the Valvoline VR-1 since there are VERY few oils in the lighter weights that have the ZDDP in sufficient levels in them.

I have an old '73 Caddy that has been my only car for almost 15 years and just switched to the VR-1 from Mobil 1 15-50/10-30 due to the cold climate I live in. Mobil-1 in the lighter weights used to have more ZDDP but now it doesn't.

As far as the HDEO's? Be careful with those as they are dropping ZDDP levels in themn as well and they don't tell anyone when they do.

There is Bradd Penn, Amsoil, Redline and all the other boutique oils but I can buy VR-1 off the shelf at most auto parts stores. Availability is a consideration as well. Along with cost.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Trvlr500
Considering where you live I would go with the Valvoline VR-1 since there are VERY few oils in the lighter weights that have the ZDDP in sufficient levels in them.

I have an old '73 Caddy that has been my only car for almost 15 years and just switched to the VR-1 from Mobil 1 15-50/10-30 due to the cold climate I live in. Mobil-1 in the lighter weights used to have more ZDDP but now it doesn't.

As far as the HDEO's? Be careful with those as they are dropping ZDDP levels in themn as well and they don't tell anyone when they do.

There is Bradd Penn, Amsoil, Redline and all the other boutique oils but I can buy VR-1 off the shelf at most auto parts stores. Availability is a consideration as well. Along with cost.



With diesels there are ALWAYS going to be elevated levels of EP protection. There HAS to be for many of the injection systems.

 

[Trvlr500]

Originally Posted By: Robenstein
Originally Posted By: JT1
When that engine came out ZDP levels were lower than they are today.



In 1962 I would think the levels would be higher since mechanical solid lifers where much more common in engines.


I came across an article (no I don't have the link) that discussed ZDDP levels in oil. Up until the late 60's when they really started hotrodding the engines the ZDDP level was where it is now. Down around 800ppm.

It increased through the seventies because they needed the extra protection for high pressure valve springs. Up to around 1500-1700 ppm. Now that they have rollers in everything they don't need it anymore.

Unfortunately, for those of us that prefer the relics of days gone by it is causing problems. VR-1 is the answer to the problem unless you want to go boutique.

Mobil 1 15-50 is great if it doesn't get too cold. I used it for ten years. But ebven the 15-50 is low for ZDDP if you have really high pressure valve springs. My Caddy has notoriously low valve spring pressures so I was able to get buy with the lowered ZDDP levels.

I switched to VR-1 to be on the safe side. I just have to change it more often.

 

[Ike_Clanton]

Would this work? Summit oil from another thread

 

[tgw323]

Haven't used them myself, but have read internet testimonials for Delta Cams in Washington state. They do regrinds, supposedly high quality & very reasonable prices.

 

[genynnc]

Here's the straight sauce...

I'm going hypothetical here, so bear with me.

Isky cams lists the 'bottom of the page' cam for a 292 as:
.435/.435-lift 208/[email protected] on a 108CL
A very mild hydralic to say the least. And again this is their 'biggest hydralic cam' listed for this specific engine.

Now depending on the installed height of the recommended springs, seat pressures range from 100lbs. on the seat to 285lbs open. Not a radical spring but a lot stiffer than stock.

Get the cam card and spring specs from the builder/parts supplier and find out what they are. The sooner you do this the better.

If your specs are anywhere near what I've mentioned above, it's probably best to invest in, what should be, a relatively cheap set of stock springs. Follow the recomended break in procedure, and keep the revs under 3K. After break in, change out the stock ones for the aftermarket appropriate ones necessary for the cam.

Use any HDEO. I've used many and they've worked well. To be specific- Delo, Rotella. I've also used Brad Penn Grade 1 10-30.

In my chevelle, that's largely stock. It's a warmed over 283 with a very mild hydralic cam and I broke it in on Delo and use Quaker State 10-30 and 5w-30 (depending on season). So SM oils work with flat tappets but I don't think they will in this case.