Originally Posted By: Trvlr500
Originally Posted By: Robenstein
Originally Posted By: Robenstein
JT1 said:
Flat tappet wear, need a new oil
- Thread starter kevm14
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I'd be using Valvoline VR-1, but don't need the thicker weight that I see on the shelves (basically at Advance). To get the 10w-30, I would have to order it, which is not the way I want to buy oil. I'm giving the new Rotella T5 a try in my Caddy, it comes 10w-30 and is easy to find. Will be using it in my truck next o/c as well.
There are a lot of roller cammed cars now, but there are still umpteen jillion flat tappet/follower types being made.
And they are all fine onmodern oils.
The key is the lighter components and lighter spring pressures.
Just being a flat tappet type is NOT a deal killer.
And they are all fine onmodern oils.
The key is the lighter components and lighter spring pressures.
Just being a flat tappet type is NOT a deal killer.
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Originally Posted By: Robenstein
Originally Posted By: Trvlr500
Originally Posted By: Robenstein
Originally Posted By: Trvlr500
Originally Posted By: Robenstein
JT1 said:
Originally Posted By: Trvlr500
...I would go with the Valvoline VR-1 since there are VERY few oils in the lighter weights that have the ZDDP in sufficient levels in them.
....
Last VOA I saw of VR1 10w-30 it had very low Z/P - SM/ GF-4 level. John Deere +50 and torqGuard have plenty of ZDDP IF THATS WHAT YOUR LOOKING FOR. Briggs and Stratton oil has plenty.
...I would go with the Valvoline VR-1 since there are VERY few oils in the lighter weights that have the ZDDP in sufficient levels in them.
....
Last VOA I saw of VR1 10w-30 it had very low Z/P - SM/ GF-4 level. John Deere +50 and torqGuard have plenty of ZDDP IF THATS WHAT YOUR LOOKING FOR. Briggs and Stratton oil has plenty.
Originally Posted By: kevm14
My father-in-law has an older Chevy truck with a Chevy 292 (inline 6) that he rebuilt about 4 years ago. He put a cam a little hotter than stock in it, and I think valve springs that may have been stiffer than necessary at the RPMs he was running. He's probably put about 6000 miles on it since then and done maybe 3 oil changes. I think he ran something like Castrol GTX 10W-30 on break-in and after having a ring sealing problem (tight ring gap, no relation to oil), he switched to Supertech, probably 10W-30.
Use a diesel oil, CJ-4 rated for flat tappets. More zinc.
The ring problem got bad enough that he tore it apart to rebuild and when he did, he noticed some excessive cam scuffing wear from the flat tappet lifters (they are hydraulic). He estimates maybe something like 10 thousandths, based on comparing the current lift to the cam card.
After he talked to someone in the hot rod industry about this, he learned all about ZDP, API SM and all that fun stuff. My solution, if it were my project, would be to seek out a competent cam re-grinder to fix the wear problem (292 cams are very hard to come by) and have the cam lobe surfaces hardened so he can switch to roller lifters, and not worry about this anymore (and free up a few HP in the process).
But assuming he stays with flat lifters, what oil should he run? He goes have a cat (a modern, high flow variety), and though emissions is not a legal concern, it is an ethical one, so I don't know if an off-road high-ZDP oil is the right answer. What oils would do a good job for lifter-to-cam contact? One of the HDEOs for diesels like Rotella T (regular or synthetic)? How about German Castrol? Something off the shelf would be more desirable than a boutique brand.
My father-in-law has an older Chevy truck with a Chevy 292 (inline 6) that he rebuilt about 4 years ago. He put a cam a little hotter than stock in it, and I think valve springs that may have been stiffer than necessary at the RPMs he was running. He's probably put about 6000 miles on it since then and done maybe 3 oil changes. I think he ran something like Castrol GTX 10W-30 on break-in and after having a ring sealing problem (tight ring gap, no relation to oil), he switched to Supertech, probably 10W-30.
Use a diesel oil, CJ-4 rated for flat tappets. More zinc.
The ring problem got bad enough that he tore it apart to rebuild and when he did, he noticed some excessive cam scuffing wear from the flat tappet lifters (they are hydraulic). He estimates maybe something like 10 thousandths, based on comparing the current lift to the cam card.
After he talked to someone in the hot rod industry about this, he learned all about ZDP, API SM and all that fun stuff. My solution, if it were my project, would be to seek out a competent cam re-grinder to fix the wear problem (292 cams are very hard to come by) and have the cam lobe surfaces hardened so he can switch to roller lifters, and not worry about this anymore (and free up a few HP in the process).
But assuming he stays with flat lifters, what oil should he run? He goes have a cat (a modern, high flow variety), and though emissions is not a legal concern, it is an ethical one, so I don't know if an off-road high-ZDP oil is the right answer. What oils would do a good job for lifter-to-cam contact? One of the HDEOs for diesels like Rotella T (regular or synthetic)? How about German Castrol? Something off the shelf would be more desirable than a boutique brand.
Originally Posted By: mechtech2
Originally Posted By: Jaymus
Listen, it's not like you have some hopped up cam.
An oil like Rotella-T 5W-40 fits the bill perfectly. Plenty of Z/P for a mild cam.
Actually, he DOES have a hopped up cam and springs!
If you think '435/.435-lift 208/[email protected] on a 108CL' is hopped up, then fine. To me, that's nearly stock. It's aftermarket, but not hopped up. And that is what someone said the 'biggest cam' listed on their page was for this engine. It may not even be this high of lift. Not that .435" of lift is high.
Originally Posted By: Jaymus
Listen, it's not like you have some hopped up cam.
An oil like Rotella-T 5W-40 fits the bill perfectly. Plenty of Z/P for a mild cam.
Actually, he DOES have a hopped up cam and springs!
If you think '435/.435-lift 208/[email protected] on a 108CL' is hopped up, then fine. To me, that's nearly stock. It's aftermarket, but not hopped up. And that is what someone said the 'biggest cam' listed on their page was for this engine. It may not even be this high of lift. Not that .435" of lift is high.
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: Trvlr500
Considering where you live I would go with the Valvoline VR-1 since there are VERY few oils in the lighter weights that have the ZDDP in sufficient levels in them.
I have an old '73 Caddy that has been my only car for almost 15 years and just switched to the VR-1 from Mobil 1 15-50/10-30 due to the cold climate I live in. Mobil-1 in the lighter weights used to have more ZDDP but now it doesn't.
As far as the HDEO's? Be careful with those as they are dropping ZDDP levels in themn as well and they don't tell anyone when they do.
There is Bradd Penn, Amsoil, Redline and all the other boutique oils but I can buy VR-1 off the shelf at most auto parts stores. Availability is a consideration as well. Along with cost.
With diesels there are ALWAYS going to be elevated levels of EP protection. There HAS to be for many of the injection systems.
Yes, that's true especially when you consider the load on the internals. I switched to a dino because I was in a short trip, extremely cold environment with a carburated engine and it was killing the synthetic pretty fast. Within a week the oil smelled like gas.
Since I was having to change it so often I went to the dino with more ZDDP. The newer engines have different metallurgy and use all kinds of different materials the relics didn't. I just thought it was a good idea to use the tried and true EP additives and VR-1 is the ONLY one you can buy off the shelf.
No real reason to back up my opinion. I just feel more comforatable that way. I may go back to the Mobil 1 since I'm not doing the short trips anymore. But I DO feel more comforatable with the higher levels of ZDDP in the VR-1.
There have been A LOT of trashed older flat tappet engines with these newer oils whether anyone wants to admit it or not and I highly doubt it is because everyone all of the sudden forgot how to break in a cam properly or that allof the sudden name brand cam manufacturers started having North Korea make their cams for them.
I will add, I have NO complaints with the Mobil 1 except that it DID use more oil with it than it does with the VR-1. The 15-50 has got to be one of the best oils on the market at any price. But at a steady 0 to 10 degrees I had to give it up.
Originally Posted By: Trvlr500
Considering where you live I would go with the Valvoline VR-1 since there are VERY few oils in the lighter weights that have the ZDDP in sufficient levels in them.
I have an old '73 Caddy that has been my only car for almost 15 years and just switched to the VR-1 from Mobil 1 15-50/10-30 due to the cold climate I live in. Mobil-1 in the lighter weights used to have more ZDDP but now it doesn't.
As far as the HDEO's? Be careful with those as they are dropping ZDDP levels in themn as well and they don't tell anyone when they do.
There is Bradd Penn, Amsoil, Redline and all the other boutique oils but I can buy VR-1 off the shelf at most auto parts stores. Availability is a consideration as well. Along with cost.
With diesels there are ALWAYS going to be elevated levels of EP protection. There HAS to be for many of the injection systems.
Yes, that's true especially when you consider the load on the internals. I switched to a dino because I was in a short trip, extremely cold environment with a carburated engine and it was killing the synthetic pretty fast. Within a week the oil smelled like gas.
Since I was having to change it so often I went to the dino with more ZDDP. The newer engines have different metallurgy and use all kinds of different materials the relics didn't. I just thought it was a good idea to use the tried and true EP additives and VR-1 is the ONLY one you can buy off the shelf.
No real reason to back up my opinion. I just feel more comforatable that way. I may go back to the Mobil 1 since I'm not doing the short trips anymore. But I DO feel more comforatable with the higher levels of ZDDP in the VR-1.
There have been A LOT of trashed older flat tappet engines with these newer oils whether anyone wants to admit it or not and I highly doubt it is because everyone all of the sudden forgot how to break in a cam properly or that allof the sudden name brand cam manufacturers started having North Korea make their cams for them.
I will add, I have NO complaints with the Mobil 1 except that it DID use more oil with it than it does with the VR-1. The 15-50 has got to be one of the best oils on the market at any price. But at a steady 0 to 10 degrees I had to give it up.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: kevm14
But assuming he stays with flat lifters, what oil should he run? He goes have a cat (a modern, high flow variety), and though emissions is not a legal concern, it is an ethical one, so I don't know if an off-road high-ZDP oil is the right answer.
There is no reason not to use a high ZDDP oil.
The notion it mucks up catalytic converters is hockey puck.
That means you can use most motorcycle oils, some diesel oils, or any oil with a ZDDP additive such as GM EOS or Red Line's break-in additive.
But assuming he stays with flat lifters, what oil should he run? He goes have a cat (a modern, high flow variety), and though emissions is not a legal concern, it is an ethical one, so I don't know if an off-road high-ZDP oil is the right answer.
There is no reason not to use a high ZDDP oil.
The notion it mucks up catalytic converters is hockey puck.
That means you can use most motorcycle oils, some diesel oils, or any oil with a ZDDP additive such as GM EOS or Red Line's break-in additive.
Originally Posted By: Wilhelm_D
There is no reason not to use a high ZDDP oil.
The notion it mucks up catalytic converters is hockey puck.
That means you can use most motorcycle oils, some diesel oils, or any oil with a ZDDP additive such as GM EOS or Red Line's break-in additive.
Hockey puck? Have you searched for online research on the subject? There are numerous research results showing phosphorus does decrease catalytic converter activity. Here is one: link
There is no reason not to use a high ZDDP oil.
The notion it mucks up catalytic converters is hockey puck.
That means you can use most motorcycle oils, some diesel oils, or any oil with a ZDDP additive such as GM EOS or Red Line's break-in additive.
Hockey puck? Have you searched for online research on the subject? There are numerous research results showing phosphorus does decrease catalytic converter activity. Here is one: link
Either Joe Gibbs 10W-30 "Hot Rod" oil or Amsoil 10W-40 AMO will work well in your flat-tappet engine and give the 12-1300ppm of zinc & phosphorous that is needed
http://www.joegibbsracingoil.com/products/hotrod/index.html
http://www.amsoil.com/StoreFront/amo.aspx
http://www.joegibbsracingoil.com/products/hotrod/index.html
http://www.amsoil.com/StoreFront/amo.aspx
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Anyone know the ZDDP level of RP 20W50?
Originally Posted By: JAG
Hockey puck? Have you searched for online research on the subject? There are numerous research results showing phosphorus does decrease catalytic converter activity. Here is one:
More hockey puck.
GM is the primary author of the low ZDDP movement.
If your engine is sound, and you use a low volatility oil (e.g., most synthetics), you can load the ZDDP in without the least consequence to a catalytic converter.
Hockey puck? Have you searched for online research on the subject? There are numerous research results showing phosphorus does decrease catalytic converter activity. Here is one:
More hockey puck.
GM is the primary author of the low ZDDP movement.
If your engine is sound, and you use a low volatility oil (e.g., most synthetics), you can load the ZDDP in without the least consequence to a catalytic converter.
Originally Posted By: Wilhelm_D
Originally Posted By: JAG
Hockey puck? Have you searched for online research on the subject? There are numerous research results showing phosphorus does decrease catalytic converter activity. Here is one:
More hockey puck.
GM is the primary author of the low ZDDP movement.
If your engine is sound, and you use a low volatility oil (e.g., most synthetics), you can load the ZDDP in without the least consequence to a catalytic converter.
Can you reference research that backs up that last statement? You didn't comment on the link I provided.
Originally Posted By: JAG
Hockey puck? Have you searched for online research on the subject? There are numerous research results showing phosphorus does decrease catalytic converter activity. Here is one:
More hockey puck.
GM is the primary author of the low ZDDP movement.
If your engine is sound, and you use a low volatility oil (e.g., most synthetics), you can load the ZDDP in without the least consequence to a catalytic converter.
Can you reference research that backs up that last statement? You didn't comment on the link I provided.
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