Financial graphic comparison of buying a new or used car

[Elkins45]

ABS stops faster in every scenario.

Traction control can be disabled in all my vehicles. Not sure how common / uncommon that is?

I disabled the ABS on my 98 Chevy because it malfunctioned at low speeds. I hit a tree going 5-6 MPH because it absolutely refused to fully apply the brakes even though I was standing on the pedal.

The final straw was when it almost put me in a serious accident when it did the same thing easing out of an elevated driveway into oncoming traffic. It hammered and squealed like mad but still kept me creeping forward onto the highway. I jammed on the parking brake and threw it into Park which fortunately stopped me with enough room for oncoming cars to swerve around until I could back up.

The thought of newer vehicles being required to have automatic braking terrifies me.

 

[CKN]

I had one in the family that Dave Ramsey would be proud of, but @JeffKeryk gets to enjoy it now!

Dave who?

 

[IndyIan]

ABS stops faster in every scenario.

Traction control can be disabled in all my vehicles. Not sure how common / uncommon that is?

Maybe, probably most, if I'm half dozed off and only have time to panic and stomp the pedal before I'm at the scene of the accident, sure ABS would've scrubbed a couple mph off more, before the boom.
But I bet any of us could beat the ABS system if we had noticed something was up and were going only a few mph slower, than the same car with the ABS on, especially if you just stand on the brakes with ABS. I do practice once in a while too, get the muscle memory to load up the front end quickly, for max braking force without just stomping and locking a front before the weight transfer.

Go try a few stops, you'll get the shortest distance when you are loading up the front end before max threshold braking and the abs is just kicking in like once a second, and probably just on a front tire. ABS is a good "backstop" for threshold braking. Try a stop just stomping the brake pedal, it will be a few pulses of ABS before the weight transfers and the real braking begins.

My old Focus had ABS and TC and I had to remember to turn TC off before climbing my driveway in the snow, or before an autocross run. On most of my fastest autocross runs ABS wouldn't kick on all that much, unless I had really screwed up, and it then it might save me from hitting a cone, but the run time would be slow anyways.

 

[CKN]

I disabled the ABS on my 98 Chevy because it malfunctioned at low speeds. I hit a tree going 5-6 MPH because it absolutely refused to fully apply the brakes even though I was standing on the pedal.

The final straw was when it almost put me in a serious accident when it did the same thing easing out of an elevated driveway into oncoming traffic. It hammered and squealed like mad but still kept me creeping forward onto the highway. I jammed on the parking brake and threw it into Park which fortunately stopped me with enough room for oncoming cars to swerve around until I could back up.

The thought of newer vehicles being required to have automatic braking terrifies me.

As someone who has had through about 6 or 7 vehicles-it woks as designed.
You-apparently had an issue, somewhere causing your distress. You cannot under any circumstances do a better and faster job braking than ABS can-when it is performing correctly. Especially under a panic wet braking situation.

Yea-I know the best drivers in the world hang out on this forum-so that's probably not an issue.

 

[PandaBear]

Just like GON said, this comparison is really biased because they assume a lot. I'm not saying it is a wrong idea just I don't agree with there is an absolute black and white argument on whether new or used car is the right way to go.

A used car of $10k should not be compared to a new car that takes $1300 in payment, they should be similar in comparison (slightly new like 1 year old used, 3 year old used, 5 year old used etc). Every year a car is used should also factor in the warranty's worth and depreciation should be used when comparing used vs new, etc.

There's a saying only rich people who can afford to miss work can afford an unreliable used car. Not everyone has that luxury and many need to at least have a backup beater for an unreliable car regardless of new or used. For example one of my friend got fired because he missed work too many time because his European lemon stalled or won't start.

Your monthly cost of that 10k car is still something, I'd imagine maintenance insurance etc plus purchase cost over time would still be at least $200 a month on an absolute beater to own.

If you can afford that much of a total cost of ownership per month, you likely will cross shop a $40k used car instead of a $10k used car.

ROI that's stable is likely going to be 8% instead of (according to others here) an 11% ROI.

Some people need a more expensive car due to their work (in sales for example) or a larger size, and some just want a toy. It looks like this comparison doesn't factor that in. I don't mind driving a Corolla for 10 years, but that's not the car this $1300 a month payment is for, more like a Mercedes or BMW. I typically found near new used car doesn't drop much in value vs brand new car for example. The argument of this thread should really be about why you shouldn't own an expensive car instead of new car.

 

[Elkins45]

. You cannot under any circumstances do a better and faster job braking than ABS can-when it is performing correctly. Especially under a panic wet braking situation.

I never claimed I could. I only claim I can do a better job when it is malfunctioning. I’m not anti ABS and all my other vehicles have an intact ABS system. I’m still opposed to automatic braking in MY car.

I’m fine with others who have it, preferably if it's synced to the texting app on their phone. As soon as the driver opens the text app the brakes automatically apply.

 

[GON]

How much does Sarah spend to keep the clunker running? Also Sarah has to keep spending 10k every 3 years to keep a reliable vehicle . Glad I not Sarah.

Yes, and no.

Purchased my Wife a one owner California 2014 Acura RDX, from the dealer that sold the RDX new, and serviced the RDX. If I remember correctly, we paid about $16.5k USD in 2018. Purchased the car site unseen (sent a check) from out of state until I could go pick up the RDX. We still have the RDX, only thing needed seven years of ownership were oil changes, trans fluid exchange, and replacement of the four Michelin tires with new Micheline tires, and the timing belt maintenance which likely could have gone a few years, but I am a bit nuts being proactive.

It took me about 60 days to locate this RDX, and when I saw it, I overnighted a check. I saw dozen of "dog" RDXs of the same year.

Sarah may not have the ability to screen a used car. She may not have @Astro14 as a dad to help her. But if she buys a one owner, dealer maintained Toyota or Honda, with a squeaky clean carfax, math is on her side.

Here is a report on the Acura from a few years ago:

Thread 'Review (reliability)- Used 2014 Acura RDX after three years of ownership- purchased fall 2018'

Oct 29, 2021

In 2018 my Wife told me she wanted a white SUV with a light colored interior.... imagine that.

I travel out of state for work regularly, and my Wife does not even know how to put gas in a vehicle. So dependability is the number one criteria.

Decided on a Acura RDX with a normally asperated V6 engine. Began a nationwide search, preferred one owner, only from the South or West, white, and dealer maintained. Found a few, most were priced above what I want to pay. I had time, so would wait out for the right car.

In the fall of 2018, located a 2014 RDX in Sacramento. One owner, dealer...

• GON
• Replies: 26
• Forum: Vehicles

• 

 

[SC Maintenance]

Maybe, probably most, if I'm half dozed off and only have time to panic and stomp the pedal before I'm at the scene of the accident, sure ABS would've scrubbed a couple mph off more, before the boom.
But I bet any of us could beat the ABS system if we had noticed something was up and were going only a few mph slower, than the same car with the ABS on, especially if you just stand on the brakes with ABS. I do practice once in a while too, get the muscle memory to load up the front end quickly, for max braking force without just stomping and locking a front before the weight transfer.

Go try a few stops, you'll get the shortest distance when you are loading up the front end before max threshold braking and the abs is just kicking in like once a second, and probably just on a front tire. ABS is a good "backstop" for threshold braking. Try a stop just stomping the brake pedal, it will be a few pulses of ABS before the weight transfers and the real braking begins.

My old Focus had ABS and TC and I had to remember to turn TC off before climbing my driveway in the snow, or before an autocross run. On most of my fastest autocross runs ABS wouldn't kick on all that much, unless I had really screwed up, and it then it might save me from hitting a cone, but the run time would be slow anyways.

I am not going to argue this - its well established science. Even your suggestion to "load up" the front brakes makes no sense because the ABS will do that all by itself - activating on the rear brakes long before the front, if at all on the front.

You can drive attentively with or without ABS. Thats a driver thing not a brake thing.

If your ABS is not working, then it can't help you.

 

[IndyFan]

This severely assumes Sarah has enough income to put $1227/mo away into index funds.

It didn´t say anything about their income. It just said what they did. So WE must assume she had enough to invest that way. I doubt she starved.

I think she´s smart and clearly has some money. That´s attractive! And now that she´s got at least $124k in the bank, she´s even more attractive. I´m also going to assume she´s about 5´7¨ tall with a nice figure and likes tall men say, about 56 years old, like me! Because it did not say she wasn´t. I´m also going to bet she doesn´t waste money at Starbucks. I think I´m in love!

 

[andrew_j]

$10K car for me I would be looking at a Mazda3, Corolla or Civic.

My daughter’s 2013 Acura ILX (fancy civic) has been incredible car over 51k miles / 3 years. It should have been $10k car but covid tax added $3k to it.

 

[CKN]

Maybe, probably most, if I'm half dozed off and only have time to panic and stomp the pedal before I'm at the scene of the accident, sure ABS would've scrubbed a couple mph off more, before the boom.
But I bet any of us could beat the ABS system if we had noticed something was up and were going only a few mph slower, than the same car with the ABS on, especially if you just stand on the brakes with ABS. I do practice once in a while too, get the muscle memory to load up the front end quickly, for max braking force without just stomping and locking a front before the weight transfer.

Go try a few stops, you'll get the shortest distance when you are loading up the front end before max threshold braking and the abs is just kicking in like once a second, and probably just on a front tire. ABS is a good "backstop" for threshold braking. Try a stop just stomping the brake pedal, it will be a few pulses of ABS before the weight transfers and the real braking begins.

My old Focus had ABS and TC and I had to remember to turn TC off before climbing my driveway in the snow, or before an autocross run. On most of my fastest autocross runs ABS wouldn't kick on all that much, unless I had really screwed up, and it then it might save me from hitting a cone, but the run time would be slow anyways.

This is a ridiculous, outlandish statement-especially considering the average age on this forum.
How old are you?

 

[GON]

I disabled the ABS on my 98 Chevy because it malfunctioned at low speeds. I hit a tree going 5-6 MPH because it absolutely refused to fully apply the brakes even though I was standing on the pedal.

The final straw was when it almost put me in a serious accident when it did the same thing easing out of an elevated driveway into oncoming traffic. It hammered and squealed like mad but still kept me creeping forward onto the highway. I jammed on the parking brake and threw it into Park which fortunately stopped me with enough room for oncoming cars to swerve around until I could back up.

The thought of newer vehicles being required to have automatic braking terrifies me.

In the 1990s I attended the Secret Service diplomatic protection driving school. At that time, a federal government assessment was completed that determined a well trained driver could outperform ABS in a critical braking situation. The Secret Service protection vehicles had ABS disabled.

I have no idea if improvements in ABS negate the above today. I am glad to have ABS today, as my reaction skills have diminished over the past 30 years.

How do I know my driving reaction skills have diminished, easy. In the 1990s any animal that, without any warning that jumped in front of the vehicle I was driving I could avoid impact with the animal. Today, I just brake hard and pray when a animal unexpectedly jumps in front of my vehicle.

 

[supton]

In the 1990s I attended the Secret Service diplomatic protection driving school. At that time, a federal government assessment was completed that determined a well trained driver could outperform ABS in a critical braking situation. The Secret Service protection vehicles had ABS disabled.

I have no idea if improvements in ABS negate the above today. I am glad to have ABS today, as my reaction skills have demonished over the past 30 years.

I'm going to guess those vehicles have been long retired, and that the new protection vehicles have ABS enabled, as it's now several generations later. Some things do get better with time.

But that is my guess. I wouldn't be the least surprised if those agents, out on the track, have to deal with someone disabling ABS on them (remotely) thus forcing them to know how to do threshold braking et al all the same.

 

[GON]

I'm going to guess those vehicles have been long retired.

This vehicles were driven super hard most of them were Caprices and Crown Vic or it's 1990s equivalent, I can't quite recall.

One thing that stuck out was the fleet mechanic stating he replaced the brakes pads daily when the vehicles were used for training. I suspect brake pads today might not need to be replaced as frequently.

 

[IndyFan]

This is a ridiculous, outlandish statement-especially considering the average age on this forum.

LOL

 

[slo town]

Too many replies to read at the moment, but IMO buy cars new, maintain them, treat them with respect, and drive them until they either require too many expensive repairs or they blow up and stop dead in their tracks.

Our four car fleet has a combined age of 60 years and 558,000 miles. I'd trust any one of them to drive me across the country with nothing more than putting gas in them.

Some of you may even remember my thread about spending $6K in repairs for our 2010 Honda Element SC with 267,000 miles on it (head gasket, but while they were there I had them do some other things). I'm confident that will be money well spent.

Sue and I thought about buying a new or low mileage replacement of some sort, say $30K to $40K. That's more money than I'll spend on maintenance AND repairs on my entire fleet, including the Element, for the next 10 years! And besides, there is nothing more versatile, functional, and economical than a Honda Element.

Scott

 

[goblin]

...
But I bet any of us could beat the ABS system...

This is absolutely untrue.

The first car in Europe where professional car journalists - some of them ex-racers - could NOT beat the ABS in a controlled environment, on a closed track with perfect conditions, was the Peugeot 406. And it was in 1995.

ABS systems have not devolved in 30 years. All other things being equal, a modern ABS will drive circles around any braking job where drifting is not required. Maybe things can be tailored to pull that one situtation - say in very deep snow - where no ABS will allow you to build a berm of snow in front of the tires by locking them, whereas the ABS will not, but that's a one-off.

Then there's the individual case of a car with a very bouncy suspension on a very bouncy road where the wheels will be in the air most of the time, which was a real problem on older generation ABS systems but we're talking 80s here. In Europe. Make it 90s in the US, as suspension discipline on the US market has always been more on the lax side.

Now, an ABS-equipped car with everything worn out, bouncy suspension, bald tires and whatnot, on cobblestones, will do worse than a non-ABS brand new car with new tires on asphalt, but a teenager will also beat the wind out of a Mike Tyson that is handcuffed and asleep.

There were horror stories with first and second gen ABS systems in the late 80s and early 90s, but those are long gone. The 1998 Chevy mentioned above is a peculiar one, I wonder what was wrong with it, how wrong it was and what the conditions were for it to behave as described.

 

[SC Maintenance]

In the 1990s I attended the Secret Service diplomatic protection driving school. At that time, a federal government assessment was completed that determined a well trained driver could outperform ABS in a critical braking situation. The Secret Service protection vehicles had ABS disabled.

I have no idea if improvements in ABS negate the above today. I am glad to have ABS today, as my reaction skills have diminished over the past 30 years.

How do I know my driving reaction skills have diminished, easy. In the 1990s any animal that, without any warning that jumped in front of the vehicle I was driving I could avoid impact with the animal. Today, I just brake hard and pray when a animal unexpectedly jumps in front of my vehicle.

The only possible way that a driver can stop faster than ABS, is on a surface where a locked wheel provides more friction than a non-locked wheel. Possibly there are scenarios where that exists? Where I do not know, maybe someone else does? I know off-roading in sand you don't want traction control on because a spinning wheel actually helps. So maybe in sand?

However if you go with the fact that a locked wheel generally provides less friction, there is no way a human can modulate brakes better than a computer, which can litterally do so hundreds of times a second. I believe this is the case for both wet or dry pavement or concrete - better to not slide.

Possibly early 90 algorithms were flawed?

Sounds like more government math to me. I'll stick with science.

 

[GON]

The only possible way that a driver can stop faster than ABS, is on a surface where a locked wheel provides more friction than a non-locked wheel. Possibly there are scenarios where that exists? Where I do not know, maybe someone else does? I know off-roading in sand you don't want traction control on because a spinning wheel actually helps. So maybe in sand?

However if you go with the fact that a locked wheel generally provides less friction, there is no way a human can modulate brakes better than a computer, which can litterally do so hundreds of times a second. I believe this is the case for both wet or dry pavement or concrete - better to not slide.

Possibly early 90 algorithms were flawed?

Sounds like more government math to me. I'll stick with science.

Beats me. Maybe @Astro14 or @A civilian pilot can respond..in the school they used commercial airline braking techniques as the example on how braking by pilots uses a technique that is superior to abs.

Supplementally, I don't think NASCAR or formula one use abs, but just a guess.

In a drag race, a very talented driver can achieve a quicker quarter mile with a manual transmission, when compared to a automatic transmission. But I suspect many drivers can achieve a quicker quarter mile with a automatic transmission. But the most talented driver will win a drag race with a manual transmission.

 

[Number_35]

My best friend to this day, dad was a CPA partner for a big 6. Back then mandatory retirement was 57. In 2016 he recounted to me how he did not have enough saved at age 57, 3 kids in college and 2 more on the way. So he went back to work full time.

I do recall many many Mercedes Benz and BMWs when I was in high school. I got to drive all of them. I thought he was unique swimming through new cars, but I can’t tell you how many successful people I’ve met my age who are similar, who seem to be from my eyes careless with their hard earned money.

All I can surmise is that by saving and being careful, when disaster strikes, we seem to have reasonable choices available. We’re able to pull a plan forward.

Maybe I’m not with the times, but I avoided super cruise because that necessarily changes the first digit of the list price of our car to Gordie Howe’s and Maurice Richard’s number, and I’m not comfortable with that. Same with 24” wheels. It’s just not a monthly payment to me it’s a total cost of ownership. 14 mpg on premium I’m ok with.

My most expensive cars to date have started with Jacque Plante's number (to stay in the same era).

That is, I've bought three for $10K or more, but have never paid $20K.