Finally got the clutch changed on the M5......

[Vikas]

How did you let them get away with duplicate labor charging on the rear main seal? If they can get *you*, what about all the other soccer moms or nerd dads who have no clue about car repairs? Did you use word "fraud"? That might get their attention.

Somebody should be able to look up Mitchell or other labor time guide book to find exactly what additional time is needed to replace rear main seal when the clutch is already removed.

If you make enough noise, you should be able to give you the refund. It is worth a try.

 

[Jarlaxle]

Honestly...I would call the AG's fraud division!

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Vikas
How did you let them get away with duplicate labor charging on the rear main seal? If they can get *you*, what about all the other soccer moms or nerd dads who have no clue about car repairs? Did you use word "fraud"? That might get their attention.

Somebody should be able to look up Mitchell or other labor time guide book to find exactly what additional time is needed to replace rear main seal when the clutch is already removed.

If you make enough noise, you should be able to give you the refund. It is worth a try.


The scarier part is that this is HALF of what the original labour quote was for the RMS.......

 

[Colt45ws]

Originally Posted By: KitaCam
When I got Kitacam rolling off the Toyo lot the first time I felt next to no resistance from the clutch and remarked to the salesman how smooth the clutch was...."it's brand-new" says the salesman..."feels it" I say....."that's a $2800 job" he says.

'Surrrrrrre...'I say to myself, having just the year before spent $800 on the Altima's clutch...and another $350 for master and slave cylinders....still, that's at an indie shop, and I'm sure $2800 would be dealer retail

"I can get you the work order for ya" the salesman follows up..."When the 1st owner brought it in on trade, we had to replace a clutch put in by a local shop that didn't work...oh, still thinking, likely an aftermarket part job...

Here's the work order I got...whether it's a $2800 job is questionable, but I can hear the salesman telling the 1st owner...That beautiful car would be worth over 6 grand in trade, but we have to deduct over 2 thousand just to fix the clutch...

Why a clutch would go in 90k miles is odd to me as my Altima went 180k before replacement....

In any case, that told me that I could get Kitacam for close to that $6 grand...and I knew then how to name and get my price...and did.

In any case, here's the work order for the clutch that should last me a lifetime...

Are you kidding? Someone who doesnt know what they are doing can smoke a clutch in no time. I had to put a clutch in my Mom's old Saturn before 90k because it was slipping. The previous owners was an older woman who let her druggie daughter drive it whenever she wanted. Whom also let her druggie friends drive it all over as well.

 

[hattaresguy]

Originally Posted By: TallPaul
Originally Posted By: cchase
Some people love to ... sit on hills holding the car with the clutch.

You don't mean slipping the clutch with it in gear to hold position on a hill, do you?

Surely you mean like some do at a red light where they sit with the clutch pedal fully depressed and in gear.


Some old trucks have double sided clutch's so if you do that at a red light you will burn it out. You take those transmissions out of gear.

I grew up driving old dump trucks around job sites so by force of habit now I never sit with the clutch depressed.

Anyway its good to see the M5 is better than ever! Any mods on her yet?

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
Honestly...I would call the AG's fraud division!


Well, what I have done is contacted the dealer I normally deal with and am getting an idea as to what they would have charged me for the same job.

We'll go from there

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: hattaresguy

Anyway its good to see the M5 is better than ever! Any mods on her yet?



Nope, still enjoying the car stock at this point.

 

[OVERKILL]

I literally JUST got a customer satisfaction call about the job. In respect to the quality of work done, I informed the lady that it was excellent. But noted that I believe I was overcharged by 6hrs on the Rear Main Seal job.

We'll see if this goes anywhere.....

 

[Jarlaxle]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
Honestly...I would call the AG's fraud division!


Well, what I have done is contacted the dealer I normally deal with and am getting an idea as to what they would have charged me for the same job.

We'll go from there

Charging labor twice for the same job is FRAUD!

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
Honestly...I would call the AG's fraud division!


Well, what I have done is contacted the dealer I normally deal with and am getting an idea as to what they would have charged me for the same job.

We'll go from there

Charging labor twice for the same job is FRAUD!


Yes, but I do try to use some tact when dealing with things like this. So if I have a quote for the same job from a competing dealer that more aptly reflects what the charges should have been, I can push the issue and hopefully get some resolve without burning any bridges. This is the closest BMW dealer to me, so I'd rather not completely sour that relationship over 800 bucks.

 

[mechanicx]

I don't think it is good customer service or right but I don't see how it's fraud. Since it really did need a rms, they quoted you a price, it was agreed on, and they did it, it might be taking advantage of you in the situation but it's not fraud. They're really under no obligation to follow book times or to even do the RMS if they don't want to.

Of course they should've discussed the possibility of the rear main seal replacement and quoted a price before tearing it down. They weren't exactly on the ball and fair with their price but it's not really fraud and at this point they really aren't under any obligation to refund for the rms. I guess it doesn't hurt to try though.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
I don't think it is good customer service or right but I don't see how it's fraud. Since it really did need a rms, they quoted you a price, it was agreed on, and they did it, it might be taking advantage of you in the situation but it's not fraud. They're really under no obligation to follow book times or to even do the RMS if they don't want to.

Of course they should've discussed the possibility of the rear main seal replacement and quoted a price before tearing it down. They weren't exactly on the ball and fair with their price but it's not really fraud and at this point they really aren't under any obligation to refund for the rms. I guess it doesn't hurt to try though.



Fair enough point. I've brought it to their attention at this point and as I said, have contacted the other dealer for a quote on the same job to see how far apart we are on things. The ball is in their court at that point once that information is presented.

I don't expect them to refund me the $800.00 quite frankly. But it does mean that I'll take the extra effort to go to the other dealer from this point forward if that's the way they are going to deal with me.

 

[toeout]

I don't get the price comparisons to clutch replacements. It was done at the dealer and most importantly, timing was critical. Obviously you get it cheaper by doing it yourself or when you have to luxury of time to shop around.

I wonder what the clutch replacement goes for at the Chevy dealer. Using by the book hours and list prices for parts.

We had rear axle go bad in our Chevy Express about a week ago. The estimate to fix it was $2K in a good case and $3K for bad. It still blows my mind how a rear axle can cost the same as transmission for a Chevy.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: toeout
I don't get the price comparisons to clutch replacements. It was done at the dealer and most importantly, timing was critical. Obviously you get it cheaper by doing it yourself or when you have to luxury of time to shop around.

I wonder what the clutch replacement goes for at the Chevy dealer. Using by the book hours and list prices for parts.

We had rear axle go bad in our Chevy Express about a week ago. The estimate to fix it was $2K in a good case and $3K for bad. It still blows my mind how a rear axle can cost the same as transmission for a Chevy.


I don't disagree with anything you've said

I have no gripes with the work performed, they did an excellent job. But the billing of extra labour on the invoice is glaringly obvious when they have 5hrs booked for the clutch job then 7.1 hours for removing the flyhweel and swapping the RMS, which is a bolt-on part. I wouldn't have minded paying 1 or 2 hours for that, as that's likely what book time would be for it assuming it is being done as part of the clutch job, but it is like it was billed as an RMS job separate from the clutch job (which explains the extra 2hrs over the clutch job) which certainly isn't right.

 

[cchase]

If I am to interpret everything right, the issue is that they basically charged you to replace the RMS, put everything back together, then take everything apart again and replace the clutch.

Right? If so, kind of a bum deal but oh well, live and learn.

I love comments about "if you can afford ___, then you can afford ___".

 

[toeout]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: toeout
I don't get the price comparisons to clutch replacements. It was done at the dealer and most importantly, timing was critical. Obviously you get it cheaper by doing it yourself or when you have to luxury of time to shop around.

I wonder what the clutch replacement goes for at the Chevy dealer. Using by the book hours and list prices for parts.

We had rear axle go bad in our Chevy Express about a week ago. The estimate to fix it was $2K in a good case and $3K for bad. It still blows my mind how a rear axle can cost the same as transmission for a Chevy.


I don't disagree with anything you've said

I have no gripes with the work performed, they did an excellent job. But the billing of extra labour on the invoice is glaringly obvious when they have 5hrs booked for the clutch job then 7.1 hours for removing the flyhweel and swapping the RMS, which is a bolt-on part. I wouldn't have minded paying 1 or 2 hours for that, as that's likely what book time would be for it assuming it is being done as part of the clutch job, but it is like it was billed as an RMS job separate from the clutch job (which explains the extra 2hrs over the clutch job) which certainly isn't right.


I worded it badly. I was addressing other posters, who were doing BMW vs ..... comparisons.

I absolutely agree that the RMS labor that they charged was excessive.

To go back to the Chevy example, I found a complete new rear axle for $800 from eBay that I had shipped to the dealer. The labor to R&R complete rear axle ( with complete brakes attached )was 7.5 hours, when rebuilding it was 9 hours. I don't see how it takes over 7 hours to replace an axle, but I had to get it done ASAP.

I also like the dealer to perform the work I'm unable to do myself, since they have to answer to Corporate vs. independent repair shops

 

[Vikas]

I am sorry but this is a clear case example of dealer being completely unethical. In my book, this is a fraud and it can only be done on unsuspecting and naive customers.

Would anybody allow a Honda dealership to add up charges for replacing water pump and replacing timing belt when done together? If you guys remember, I had to put a rebuilt transmission in the Maxima. As a part of that job, I asked him to put new clutch and he also put new RMS. Could he have now charged me
1) Labor for transmission replacement
2) Labor for clutch replacement
3) Labor for new RMS

Each one would be about 6 hours of labor. Do you think I paid 18 hours of labor?

But as mechanix pointed out, you agreed to the price when the dealer made the proverbial call to you. Why did you not proactively ask for RMS replacement and get this resolved before authorizing the start of the job?

You certainly are in much better financial position than most of us if you can afford to give away $800 just to "not sour the relationship" with the dealer even though your car is way past any warranty.

I know this is harsh but it does frost me that the dealer got away overcharging you who I consider to be a no nonsense and mechanically astute person.

HOW DID THAT HAPPEN???

 

[antiqueshell]

Originally Posted By: Vikas
I am sorry but this is a clear case example of dealer being completely unethical. In my book, this is a fraud and it can only be done on unsuspecting and naive customers.


I know this is harsh but it does frost me that the dealer got away overcharging you who I consider to be a no nonsense and mechanically astute person.

HOW DID THAT HAPPEN???


Glad you brought this up Vikas.

My reaction was the same when I read OVERKILL's post.

You will find this with owners of expensive to maintain and repair vehicles and dealer service departments. The owner may even realize that they are being "hosed" on price but they don't want to get on the "bad side" of the service department for fear that if they do they might be hosed on the quality of the repair work itself or be screwed even further for repair costs. I think of it as the automotive "Stockholm Syndrome". LOL

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Vikas

But as mechanix pointed out, you agreed to the price when the dealer made the proverbial call to you. Why did you not proactively ask for RMS replacement and get this resolved before authorizing the start of the job?

*snip*

I know this is harsh but it does frost me that the dealer got away overcharging you who I consider to be a no nonsense and mechanically astute person.

HOW DID THAT HAPPEN???


The talk of adjusting the price to factor in the clutch job was done over the phone while I was in a crunch trying to get some business stuff taken care of. The price that was quoted on the phone for the RMS job (~$1030) was AFTER he adjusted the price to factor in the clutch job after I pointed out to him that he was one part (the flywheel) away from being able to see the RMS the way the car sat. The original figure was pretty much double that. So I had, at the time, no reason to doubt that he had legitimately discounted the majority of the labour to reflect that and told them to go ahead with it as long as it could be done same-day as I needed the car back Thursday, no later.

So when I picked up the car, the agreed-upon amount was the amount on the invoice, so I paid it and left. Then took a look at the invoice later to check out the part #'s when I got home and saw the double labour and was like [censored]???

And they haven't gotten away with it. I have pointed it out to them and will deal with this in as diplomatic a manner as possible. I don't pick up the phone and scream at people.

It was late when I picked up my car and I just wanted to get home. It had been a very hectic day. Should I have analyzed the invoice at the counter before paying it? Yes. I didn't because the amount did in fact match the numbers we spoke of on the phone, which were, as I understood, "adjusted".

 

[Vikas]

If I understand correctly, your objection is NOT to the actual amount you had agreed to pay (and actually paid) but the breakdown on the receipt made you to take a another look? Is it not a case of "six of this or half dozen of that" then?

Getting technical, is it common to have to take off the flywheel before accessing RMS? I always thought flywheel removal is not necessary to see RMS. If removal is necessary, then additional labor charge is understandable.