Finally got the clutch changed on the M5......

Status
Not open for further replies.
Originally Posted By: Vikas
IGetting technical, is it common to have to take off the flywheel before accessing RMS? I always thought flywheel removal is not necessary to see RMS. If removal is necessary, then additional labor charge is understandable.


I have yet to see an engine where the flywheel / flexplate does not come off to access the rear main seal.

I would say that there should be 1.5-2 hours labor extra on top of a clutch job to do a rear main seal on a car like that.
 
Originally Posted By: Vikas
If I understand correctly, your objection is NOT to the actual amount you had agreed to pay (and actually paid) but the breakdown on the receipt made you to take a another look? Is it not a case of "six of this or half dozen of that" then?


You might have a point there but I think Overkill was assuming the total hours billed were reasonable and close to book. If he'd known he was be billing 8 hours or whatever over book for additional service or however you slice it, he might not have agreed to have them work on it. It's really bad form to escalate the rate for additional repairs you find needed after you have the car apart. It's sort of like bait and switch.
 
Originally Posted By: bdcardinal

I have yet to see an engine where the flywheel / flexplate does not come off to access the rear main seal.



Big-block Mopar (383/440/413/etc.) But you do have to drop the oil pan with all that entails, including jacking the engine up several inches and suspending it there. I'm sure there are other examples, that's just the one I'm familiar with.
 
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Originally Posted By: bdcardinal

I have yet to see an engine where the flywheel / flexplate does not come off to access the rear main seal.



Big-block Mopar (383/440/413/etc.) But you do have to drop the oil pan with all that entails, including jacking the engine up several inches and suspending it there. I'm sure there are other examples, that's just the one I'm familiar with.



The later magnum smallblocks like the one in my Jeep are the same way. It's a 2 piece seal. You pull the starter, oil pan and the rear main bearing cap to access it.
 
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Originally Posted By: Vikas
If I understand correctly, your objection is NOT to the actual amount you had agreed to pay (and actually paid) but the breakdown on the receipt made you to take a another look? Is it not a case of "six of this or half dozen of that" then?


You might have a point there but I think Overkill was assuming the total hours billed were reasonable and close to book. If he'd known he was be billing 8 hours or whatever over book for additional service or however you slice it, he might not have agreed to have them work on it. It's really bad form to escalate the rate for additional repairs you find needed after you have the car apart. It's sort of like bait and switch.


Exactly mechanicx
thumbsup2.gif
 
Originally Posted By: Vikas
If I understand correctly, your objection is NOT to the actual amount you had agreed to pay (and actually paid) but the breakdown on the receipt made you to take a another look? Is it not a case of "six of this or half dozen of that" then?


Kind of. I expected to be reasonably billed for the work performed and also didn't expect any sort of discount because it was a time-sensitive job and one they agreed they could do last minute. I expected to pay for that.

But I knew the price of the clutch job going in. I had no idea as to the price of the RMS, because it wasn't part of the original work order. After my phone discussion with the Service Advisor, it appeared clear that it was being done as "part" of the clutch job, which should have only added a couple of hours to the total. They'd likely show up as separate, but there'd only be 1 or 2 book hours for it.

When I DID check the invoice and found that it was 7.1, that's what I had a problem with, as that number would reflect the WHOLE job INCLUDING the RMS for labour. Not as a stand-alone for the RMS.

Quote:
Getting technical, is it common to have to take off the flywheel before accessing RMS? I always thought flywheel removal is not necessary to see RMS. If removal is necessary, then additional labor charge is understandable.


To access? yes. The RMS is behind the flywheel, as part of a plate assembly on this engine, which goes over the end of the crankshaft.

However you can see if it is leaking or not without taking the flywheel off, which is what they did initially.
 
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
See this is why I don't understand why some people think manuals are more reliable and cheaper to fix than an automatic. Manuals often need a clutch work and that's not cheap especially on FWD cars. The gearbox internally can wear out/fail too. I remember on an '86 RX7 you couldn't buy a new transmission. You had to buy all the parts, $3k retail back then and that did not include the clutch parts or any labor. Automatics could usually be rebuilt for a couple hundred dollars in parts but there was some labor involved. I've had plenty of automatics go 150K+ miles with just one fluid change.

I agree.

The Auto Trans in my 300+k miles LS400 didn't need any work other than changing ATF every 60-80k miles, the Auto Trans in my 140+k miles in my E430 had one ATF change at 80+k miles and will do another in about 30-40k miles.

The S2000 only comes with MT so I prepare to pay for the clutch job in the near future, so far it didn't show any sign of problem yet.



So BMW parts and labor are expensive. No news there. A stealership tried to hose a client. Not news either. They'd steal from their own Mom if they thought they could!

I've had many manuals and in very strong cars, never had a clutch go less than 150k miles even with track use. I would be pleased that a car like Overkill's with a high performance drivetrain would go that far. Not bad at all.

That said, a manual's advantages are only born out with a good DRIVER. This is why we used to devalue used cars with a stick, it depends who's driving!


Im not sure that an extremely high performance vehicle is a good example. Then again, I do have one off the top of my head as an anecdote...

My brother's 94 Mitsubishi 3000GT VR-4 needed a new clutch at around 120k miles. The total cost was $850 at the dealer.

Compare that to the 4 speed AT on my mother's plymouth breeze that needed replacement at 140k miles, and ran just north of $2000 at the dealer.

Which one gives a lower lifecycle cost?

Particularly when the AT cost nearly $1000 more to buy it as an option to begin with!
 
BRAG My Ranger's clutch was still going strong at 413K miles BRAG.
BRAG I can drive a straight 13/15 speed.. since I was about 12 years old actually BRAG.
It is ALL dependent on the driver. DMF setups it is a scrapshoot.
 
I don't know if it was ME, or the clutch...

i grew up in a family of nothing but manuals. we'd generally put about 100k on a car and then it'd be worn out. everyone-- all of us, drove sticks.

I bought my first car after college, a 2.2L legacy wagon. One had to drive that car HARD to keep up with beltway traffic. I rev-matched my shifts, never slipped it during shifts, and "normal" launches had my foot off the pedal as soon as the car was off-idle. I did get a little naughty with frequent heel-toe, but also learned to shift without the clutch instead of heel-toe, reliably if it was a downshift. I never held it on a hill, and only had a few high-rpm rip-it-up launches in its lifetime.

that clutch was gone at 97,000. And there was a little heat-coloration on the flywheel.

the only thing I can think of for the quick wear was daily stop-go around the dc beltway??? even then, there was little right pedal involved before the left foot was off the pedal.

kinda hurt my 5-spd man card.
 
Originally Posted By: rslifkin
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Originally Posted By: bdcardinal

I have yet to see an engine where the flywheel / flexplate does not come off to access the rear main seal.



Big-block Mopar (383/440/413/etc.) But you do have to drop the oil pan with all that entails, including jacking the engine up several inches and suspending it there. I'm sure there are other examples, that's just the one I'm familiar with.



The later magnum smallblocks like the one in my Jeep are the same way. It's a 2 piece seal. You pull the starter, oil pan and the rear main bearing cap to access it.


Sounds like those type of rms would require even more labor time.

No easy way....
 
Originally Posted By: DrDusty86
BRAG My Ranger's clutch was still going strong at 413K miles BRAG.
BRAG I can drive a straight 13/15 speed.. since I was about 12 years old actually BRAG.
It is ALL dependent on the driver. DMF setups it is a scrapshoot.



If you live in the mountains the clutch won't last that long. When I lived in WV, you were lucky to get 80-100K out of a clutch and 35K out of brakes.
 
Originally Posted By: MarkM66
Originally Posted By: rslifkin
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Originally Posted By: bdcardinal

I have yet to see an engine where the flywheel / flexplate does not come off to access the rear main seal.



Big-block Mopar (383/440/413/etc.) But you do have to drop the oil pan with all that entails, including jacking the engine up several inches and suspending it there. I'm sure there are other examples, that's just the one I'm familiar with.



The later magnum smallblocks like the one in my Jeep are the same way. It's a 2 piece seal. You pull the starter, oil pan and the rear main bearing cap to access it.


Sounds like those type of rms would require even more labor time.

No easy way....


Depends... definitely would take more time than the BMW style... IF you were already in there for a clutch job. But with the pan-drop type, you can do the job with the transmission and clutch or flex-plate in place. 6 of 1, half-dozen of the other. Also on the big Mopar, its a Y-block so the oil pan gasket (gasktS if you have a windage tray) is perfectly flat and simple to R&R. The small Mopar is a bit more of a hassle because its not a Y-block and has the curved end pieces on the oil pan gasket... which can turn to an advantage in some cars because it gives you room to work the pan around the crank counterweights without lifting the engine so high.

Short version: Rear mains are a pain in the butt no matter how you have to get at them.
 
Originally Posted By: MarkM66


Sounds like those type of rms would require even more labor time.

No easy way....


I will take pulling a transmission anyday over dropping the pan on most cars. My Mustang would entail dropping the K-member to pull the pan properly, no thanks, I will yank the T-5 in under an hour.
 
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Depends... definitely would take more time than the BMW style... IF you were already in there for a clutch job. But with the pan-drop type, you can do the job with the transmission and clutch or flex-plate in place. 6 of 1, half-dozen of the other. Also on the big Mopar, its a Y-block so the oil pan gasket (gasktS if you have a windage tray) is perfectly flat and simple to R&R. The small Mopar is a bit more of a hassle because its not a Y-block and has the curved end pieces on the oil pan gasket... which can turn to an advantage in some cars because it gives you room to work the pan around the crank counterweights without lifting the engine so high.

Short version: Rear mains are a pain in the butt no matter how you have to get at them.



Even better in the Jeep. Just gotta get the front suspension to full droop so the axle's out of the way, no need to lift the engine to get the pan off
smile.gif
 
Context for my post above:

Originally Posted By: Tegger
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Double-clutching is unnecessary with a synchronized transmission. All you need to do to minimize clutch wear is rev-match, which is what I do via a blip of the throttle on a gear change to bring the revs up to match the lower gear before engaging.

That's true, but double-clutching does save quite a lot of wear on the synchros as well.
 
Originally Posted By: TallPaul
I would think that all this double clutching would take much of the fun out of it. Got to slow you down too.


Agreed, LOL!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

T
Worn flywheel and clutch?
Replies
16
Views
624
Chris142
92saturnsl2
2008 Dodge Ram 2500 6.7L clutch replacement
Replies
1
Views
857
14Accent
T
Can't find replacement parts
Replies
15
Views
570
Carmudgeon
T
Clutch masters quality?
Replies
9
Views
539
Chris142
O
Odd feeling clutch when stop and go
Replies
15
Views
653
SHOZ
Back
Top