Finally got the clutch changed on the M5......

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It's telling that the service writer didn't respond to the question about the dual mass flywheel. He probably didn't know what you were talking about. They have only been in BMWs for a little over a quarter century.

After all, it's not his job to know these details. Just to add up the book time for every service, skipping nothing, even if a part is already off for some other service.

As you know, changing the rear main seal is pretty easy when the clutch is changed. On most BMW engine the seal is held by a separate cast aluminum carrier plate. For some engines, BMW encourages its dealers to use a kit with the seal already pressed into a new plate, and a disposable plastic guide cone/cap held in the new seal. So it's just removing six bolts, tapping loose the old plate, putting sealing compound on the oil pan interface and installing the new gasket (resin side out) and bolting the plate kit on.

A note about the sealing surfaces: the carrier plate seals against both the vertical engine block and horizontal oil pan gasket. Real BMW gaskets are often resin coated on one side, and should be installed without additional sealants. The old carrier gasket should come off cleanly with the plate, while the oil pan gasket should remain intact on the oil pan. Re-sealing against the old oil pan gasket is done with a thin layer of non-adhesive compound. If things go badly (usually because the previous service used gasket compound) the oil pan gasket can tear, creating a leak that looks like the new seal has failed.
 
Originally Posted By: djb
It's telling that the service writer didn't respond to the question about the dual mass flywheel. He probably didn't know what you were talking about. They have only been in BMWs for a little over a quarter century.

After all, it's not his job to know these details. Just to add up the book time for every service, skipping nothing, even if a part is already off for some other service.


LOL! Well played
wink.gif


Quote:
As you know, changing the rear main seal is pretty easy when the clutch is changed. On most BMW engine the seal is held by a separate cast aluminum carrier plate. For some engines, BMW encourages its dealers to use a kit with the seal already pressed into a new plate, and a disposable plastic guide cone/cap held in the new seal. So it's just removing six bolts, tapping loose the old plate, putting sealing compound on the oil pan interface and installing the new gasket (resin side out) and bolting the plate kit on.

A note about the sealing surfaces: the carrier plate seals against both the vertical engine block and horizontal oil pan gasket. Real BMW gaskets are often resin coated on one side, and should be installed without additional sealants. The old carrier gasket should come off cleanly with the plate, while the oil pan gasket should remain intact on the oil pan. Re-sealing against the old oil pan gasket is done with a thin layer of non-adhesive compound. If things go badly (usually because the previous service used gasket compound) the oil pan gasket can tear, creating a leak that looks like the new seal has failed.



Yup, that happened to one of the guys on M5board recently. They were into it 2 or three times, changing out the new seal, then other stuff (I think VCG's?) only to find out that this was the issue.
 
Originally Posted By: djb
It's telling that the service writer didn't respond to the question about the dual mass flywheel. He probably didn't know what you were talking about. They have only been in BMWs for a little over a quarter century.

After all, it's not his job to know these details. Just to add up the book time for every service, skipping nothing, even if a part is already off for some other service.

As you know, changing the rear main seal is pretty easy when the clutch is changed. On most BMW engine the seal is held by a separate cast aluminum carrier plate. For some engines, BMW encourages its dealers to use a kit with the seal already pressed into a new plate, and a disposable plastic guide cone/cap held in the new seal. So it's just removing six bolts, tapping loose the old plate, putting sealing compound on the oil pan interface and installing the new gasket (resin side out) and bolting the plate kit on.

A note about the sealing surfaces: the carrier plate seals against both the vertical engine block and horizontal oil pan gasket. Real BMW gaskets are often resin coated on one side, and should be installed without additional sealants. The old carrier gasket should come off cleanly with the plate, while the oil pan gasket should remain intact on the oil pan. Re-sealing against the old oil pan gasket is done with a thin layer of non-adhesive compound. If things go badly (usually because the previous service used gasket compound) the oil pan gasket can tear, creating a leak that looks like the new seal has failed.




So with the tranny out, does it take 7.1 hrs to do it?? I think the OP got shafted on this part
 
Originally Posted By: WhyMe
Originally Posted By: djb
It's telling that the service writer didn't respond to the question about the dual mass flywheel. He probably didn't know what you were talking about. They have only been in BMWs for a little over a quarter century.

After all, it's not his job to know these details. Just to add up the book time for every service, skipping nothing, even if a part is already off for some other service.

As you know, changing the rear main seal is pretty easy when the clutch is changed. On most BMW engine the seal is held by a separate cast aluminum carrier plate. For some engines, BMW encourages its dealers to use a kit with the seal already pressed into a new plate, and a disposable plastic guide cone/cap held in the new seal. So it's just removing six bolts, tapping loose the old plate, putting sealing compound on the oil pan interface and installing the new gasket (resin side out) and bolting the plate kit on.

A note about the sealing surfaces: the carrier plate seals against both the vertical engine block and horizontal oil pan gasket. Real BMW gaskets are often resin coated on one side, and should be installed without additional sealants. The old carrier gasket should come off cleanly with the plate, while the oil pan gasket should remain intact on the oil pan. Re-sealing against the old oil pan gasket is done with a thin layer of non-adhesive compound. If things go badly (usually because the previous service used gasket compound) the oil pan gasket can tear, creating a leak that looks like the new seal has failed.




So with the tranny out, does it take 7.1 hrs to do it?? I think the OP got shafted on this part


Yup, I think I did too. There's no way it took that long.
 
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Oh the joy of BMW ownership. $2800 for a flywheel?
I just bought a new high-performance billet steel flywheel for my Camaro. $268. The clutch and pressure plate cost another $300.

If you are affluent... you can easily afford to repair a BMW.
 
With the kit and experience, the rear main seal can be changed in under 15 minutes. That includes a quick inspection of the sealing surface.

Without the kit it takes a little longer to press the seal into the old carrier plate evenly, and time to clean off the old gasket. If there is a wear groove on the crank it takes extra time to evaluate. If the block gasket surface needs to be cleaned it takes extra time, which is supposed to be covered by "book time" but always seems to be charged as an exception.

You can scuff the surface of the flywheel while it's mounted, so removing and replacing (always new bolts at $2/ea) it might be an add-on to a clutch only job. But "book time" nominally covers removing and inspecting the flywheel, so it really shouldn't be an extra charge.
 
Originally Posted By: djb
With the kit and experience, the rear main seal can be changed in under 15 minutes. That includes a quick inspection of the sealing surface.

Without the kit it takes a little longer to press the seal into the old carrier plate evenly, and time to clean off the old gasket. If there is a wear groove on the crank it takes extra time to evaluate. If the block gasket surface needs to be cleaned it takes extra time, which is supposed to be covered by "book time" but always seems to be charged as an exception.

You can scuff the surface of the flywheel while it's mounted, so removing and replacing (always new bolts at $2/ea) it might be an add-on to a clutch only job. But "book time" nominally covers removing and inspecting the flywheel, so it really shouldn't be an extra charge.



I'm certain they used the kit, as it was listed on the invoice. I posted a pic of it in the OP. I figure, being fair, I likely got taken for 6 hours of labour on the RMS install. The clutch, listed as 5 hours, is reasonable IMHO. As it stands, I was billed 12.1 hours of labour for the entire job.
 
Originally Posted By: LT4 Vette
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Oh the joy of BMW ownership. $2800 for a flywheel?
I just bought a new high-performance billet steel flywheel for my Camaro. $268. The clutch and pressure plate cost another $300.

If you are affluent... you can easily afford to repair a BMW.




Come on, the car is 12 years old and hasn't really cost much to own up until this job, which won't have to be done again for another 150,000Km (which is the generally agreed-upon life expectancy of the stock clutch in these cars).
 
Originally Posted By: supton
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
See this is why I don't understand why some people think manuals are more reliable and cheaper to fix than an automatic. Manuals often need a clutch work and that's not cheap especially on FWD cars. The gearbox internally can wear out/fail too. I remember on an '86 RX7 you couldn't buy a new transmission. You had to buy all the parts, $3k retail back then and that did not include the clutch parts or any labor.Automatics could usually be rebuilt for a couple hundred dollars in parts but there was some labor involved. I've had plenty of automatics go 150K+ miles with just one fluid change.


I think it was $1200 to do the clutch on my VW. I think it was 100-200 bucks more for the better flywheel and clutch; to be honest, the plate was in excellent condition when it came out. It was the flywheel that had gone bad. I was a bit miffed at doing it at 249kmiles, but, I knew it wasn't a great clutch going in. Should be set for another 250k, and I only need to change the oil every 100k, regardless of how hard it is driven.

YMMV. Some autos last forever, some die early even with routine fluid changes.


You must be a very smooth driver. Not many people can get 250k miles on a clutch. I thought I was doing good to get 193k on my Camaro's clutch.
 
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
You must be a very smooth driver. Not many people can get 250k miles on a clutch.

I got 255,000 miles on the original clutch in my Integra.

And even then the only reason I took it in to get replaced was because I was having difficulty getting the shifter into 2nd gear (there was a good reason for that which had nothing to do with me, and was discovered after the transmission was removed). The clutch was not slipping at all at that point, and my mechanic estimated that it might have gone another 10K miles before it was down to the rivets on both sides. Got 147K on the new clutch right now, and I've only had to adjust it a few times.

The clutch job cost $800 all told; Hondas are cheap to run, unlike some status models.
 
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
See this is why I don't understand why some people think manuals are more reliable and cheaper to fix than an automatic. Manuals often need a clutch work and that's not cheap especially on FWD cars. The gearbox internally can wear out/fail too. I remember on an '86 RX7 you couldn't buy a new transmission. You had to buy all the parts, $3k retail back then and that did not include the clutch parts or any labor. Automatics could usually be rebuilt for a couple hundred dollars in parts but there was some labor involved. I've had plenty of automatics go 150K+ miles with just one fluid change.

I agree.

The Auto Trans in my 300+k miles LS400 didn't need any work other than changing ATF every 60-80k miles, the Auto Trans in my 140+k miles in my E430 had one ATF change at 80+k miles and will do another in about 30-40k miles.

The S2000 only comes with MT so I prepare to pay for the clutch job in the near future, so far it didn't show any sign of problem yet.
 
Clutch life is somewhat connected to how well you can match shifts. Some people love to ride the clutch, can't match revs to save their life, downshift every gear coming up to a light, sit on hills holding the car with the clutch.

A clutch, operated by someone who knows what they're doing and in a normal circumstance (ie not an undersized clutch in a heavy car with lots of power) should last a very long time.
 
When I got Kitacam rolling off the Toyo lot the first time I felt next to no resistance from the clutch and remarked to the salesman how smooth the clutch was...."it's brand-new" says the salesman..."feels it" I say....."that's a $2800 job" he says.

'Surrrrrrre...'I say to myself, having just the year before spent $800 on the Altima's clutch...and another $350 for master and slave cylinders....still, that's at an indie shop, and I'm sure $2800 would be dealer retail

"I can get you the work order for ya" the salesman follows up..."When the 1st owner brought it in on trade, we had to replace a clutch put in by a local shop that didn't work...oh, still thinking, likely an aftermarket part job...

Here's the work order I got...whether it's a $2800 job is questionable, but I can hear the salesman telling the 1st owner...That beautiful car would be worth over 6 grand in trade, but we have to deduct over 2 thousand just to fix the clutch...

Why a clutch would go in 90k miles is odd to me as my Altima went 180k before replacement....

In any case, that told me that I could get Kitacam for close to that $6 grand...and I knew then how to name and get my price...and did.

In any case, here's the work order for the clutch that should last me a lifetime...

camwk1cl.jpg
 
Originally Posted By: cchase
downshift every gear coming up to a light

Nothing wrong with that. HOW you do it is the key. the "how" is called "double clutching".

Doing it right results in zero wear to the clutch disc.
 
Originally Posted By: cchase
Clutch life is somewhat connected to how well you can match shifts. Some people love to ride the clutch, can't match revs to save their life, downshift every gear coming up to a light, sit on hills holding the car with the clutch.

A clutch, operated by someone who knows what they're doing and in a normal circumstance (ie not an undersized clutch in a heavy car with lots of power) should last a very long time.


These ones don't wear out, the auto adjustment mechanism starts to stick/fail at that age, and that causes partial engagement along with other issues.
 
Originally Posted By: Tegger
Originally Posted By: cchase
downshift every gear coming up to a light

Nothing wrong with that. HOW you do it is the key. the "how" is called "double clutching".

Doing it right results in zero wear to the clutch disc.


Double-clutching is unnecessary with a synchronized transmission. All you need to do to minimize clutch wear is rev-match, which is what I do via a blip of the throttle on a gear change to bring the revs up to match the lower gear before engaging. When done correctly, the gear shift is seamless and you feel nothing.
 
...and critically, results in no clutch wear.


I know you can downshift and rev-match well, but the bottom line is a lot of people think they can do it, but don't execute well.

And shifting into the next gear at 2000 rpm while accelerating and slipping a little is a lot less clutch wear than downshifting from 4th to 3rd at 4000 rpm...

I personally leave it in gear to slow down, once it hits 1000 rpm, push the clutch in and throw it in neutral for the rest of the slow-down.

My car is heavy, has a lot of power, and a small clutch, so I'm paranoid about slipping.
 
Originally Posted By: cchase
...and critically, results in no clutch wear.


I know you can downshift and rev-match well, but the bottom line is a lot of people think they can do it, but don't execute well.

And shifting into the next gear at 2000 rpm while accelerating and slipping a little is a lot less clutch wear than downshifting from 4th to 3rd at 4000 rpm...

I personally leave it in gear to slow down, once it hits 1000 rpm, push the clutch in and throw it in neutral for the rest of the slow-down.

My car is heavy, has a lot of power, and a small clutch, so I'm paranoid about slipping.


Fair enough. I typically only do it down to about 3rd, as 2nd and first are too close-ratio to warrant doing it and 3rd results in plenty of engine braking.

Sounds like our technique is pretty similar
wink.gif
 
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: cchase
...and critically, results in no clutch wear.


I know you can downshift and rev-match well, but the bottom line is a lot of people think they can do it, but don't execute well.

And shifting into the next gear at 2000 rpm while accelerating and slipping a little is a lot less clutch wear than downshifting from 4th to 3rd at 4000 rpm...

I personally leave it in gear to slow down, once it hits 1000 rpm, push the clutch in and throw it in neutral for the rest of the slow-down.

My car is heavy, has a lot of power, and a small clutch, so I'm paranoid about slipping.


Fair enough. I typically only do it down to about 3rd, as 2nd and first are too close-ratio to warrant doing it and 3rd results in plenty of engine braking.

Sounds like our technique is pretty similar
wink.gif



Nice. I'm not the only one.
I keep hearing about rev matching ruining syncros and blah blah blah yet when I up shift the gear shift slides right in without any real effort and when downshifting a light blip gets me into a lower gear which I coast in until I take it out of gear and stop.
I've only cooked 1 clutch in my life and that was a stock piece on a mustang with 100000kms and I hot lapped it all day and ran 30 pounds of nitrous.By sundown I was praying she would get me home.
Gave me an excuse to buy a df anyways. Now I always have one in stock just in case.
What's double clutching? How do you do it,not that I'm going to adjust my technique I am curious on how it done though.
 
Double-clutching a downshift is pretty simple: press clutch, shift to neutral, release clutch. Blip throttle to raise RPM's, press clutch, trans in lower gear. That's how I shift.
 
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