Filling a gas-powered vehicle can still be cheaper than charging an electric one

[JeffKeryk]

Not sure why there are panties in a twist about that article around here. It's merely comparing a "fill up" pound for pound substitute experience of owning an electric car vs gas. If you can charge from home great, and the article concedes it's much less. 98% of the crap apartments here in LA don't have access to charging. The last apt building I lived in you had to fight to get access to the charger. Even in my town house now, I could not charge a Tesla for meaningful range with 110v. I don't drive that much working from home so I don't have a dog in this fight - but I wouldn't spend 70k on a car just to virtue signal.
Also, the subsidy for electric cars is ridiculous at this point. Even musk said they don't need subsidies at this point. It's only jacking up prices. GM and Ford are licking their chops for uncle sams paychecks.

Agree, Musk never asked for nor planned for EV subsidies. Tesla also built their own charging network.
Back to subsidies, we the tax payers subsidize oil and gas both directly and indirectly. Oil is big business...

 

[JeffKeryk]

What? Well, uh, if we received 800,000 more barrels per day from an operating KP, and we need that oil in the U.S........... we would not export the oil. We would use it here in the U.S. right?

That does not mean the prices would go down. The price is what we are willing to pay.
Oil is sold on the world market. Oil companies are not your friend, they are your vendor.

 

[FZ1]

Batteries are improving, and their power is improving as well. Model S Plaid at full power has about an 8C discharge rate (1/8 hours), and in the future, the batteries should be able to continuously endure that without degrading much. These days EVs have up to a 300–400-mile or longer range, and charging times will improve over the decade, with 15-minute (4C) regular charging becoming possible. For racing applications, there are swappable batteries as well.

Agree, that's the future and it will happen over, the next generation. Some of us just don't want the economy wrecked by high Fossil fuel prices stuffed down our country's financial throat over a too short period of time via higher inflation and gas prices. I prefer a natural progression to electric cars over time. I don't dislike ev's, heck, who doesn't like10 second quarter miles?

 

[FZ1]

According to Econ, it is Price Elasticity. Perhaps you know the oil company profits are skyrocketing? Of course there is no one answer, but it is far more than a supply issue. Demand is constant, possible down due to people driving less. Supply? There are no gas lines, but certainly the world oil market is in a state of uncertainty.
The world runs on oil; it is inelastic for the most part.

• Price elasticity of demand is a measurement of the change in consumption of a product in relation to a change in its price.
• A good is elastic if a price change causes a substantial change in demand or supply.
• A good is inelastic if a price change does not cause demand or supply to change very much.
• The availability of a substitute for a product affects its elasticity. If there are no good substitutes and the product is necessary, demand won’t change when the price goes up, making it inelastic.

O.K. So if we had 800,000 more barrels delivered to the U.S. per day from the KP and refined into U.S. gasoline, diesel, and other needed oil products, do you think the price of gasoline, etc. ,would go down?

 

[sst9303]

What? Well, uh, if we received 800,000 more barrels per day from an operating KP, and we need that oil in the U.S........... we would not export the oil. We would use it here in the U.S. right?

Well uh.....the Keystone pipeline delivers crude to the U.S. everyday but the Keystone XL you are referring to wouldn't have been completed until 2023 at the earliest and wouldn't help us at this point anyway, also it's not OUR oil we just refine it so TC Energy would decide who they would export it to.

 

[FZ1]

Well uh.....since it wouldn't have been completed until 2023 at the earliest it wouldn't help us at this point anyway and it's not OUR oil we just refine it so TC Energy would decide who they would export it to.

Would have been completed by about now had work continued. The point is, Whenever the KP is completed, it will increase supply putting downward pressure on gas prices. Not our oil? We would buy it from Canada so it is OUR oil. We can use it anyway we want.

 

[Kurtatron]

I have never spent more than $3000 purchasing a used car. Until I can get an electric car that is $5000 and can have the battery life still serve me reasonably, I will hold off my EV purchase.
I do approve the non-political benefits of an EV vehicle: less maintenance, start-up ease, insta-torque. I am just not a fan of the demonization of crude oil, like some nagging nanny guilting me into EV submission. There are bigger immediate issues to worry about than climate change, in my opinion.

 

[FZ1]

That does not mean the prices would go down. The price is what we are willing to pay.
Oil is sold on the world market. Oil companies are not your friend, they are your vendor.

O.K. We can't agree on this one.

 

[JeffKeryk]

O.K. So if we had 800,000 more barrels delivered to the U.S. per day from the KP and refined into U.S. gasoline, diesel, and other needed oil products, do you think the price of gasoline, etc. ,would go down?

The Keystone Pipeline does not produce oil.
The majority of Keystone XL oil would have been sent to markets overseas and could have even led to higher prices at U.S. pumps.

There is no gas shortage. Have you seen any station outta gas? I have not nor have I heard of any.
I suggest you look at oil company profits... Oil is sold on the world market, not just to the US.

 

[PimTac]

O.K. We can't agree on this.

You are right in that prices have risen because of uncertainty of supply. If we were to restart the oil production we had just over a year ago that would go a long ways to reduce uncertainty and increase the supply.

As for prices, my non expert opinion is that we will never see them back to what they were a few years ago.

 

[sst9303]

Would have been completed by about now had work continued. The point is, Whenever the KP is completed, it will increase supply putting downward pressure on gas prices. Not our oil? We would buy it from Canada so it is OUR oil. We can use it anyway we want.

The XL was rightly shut down and if it had been completed would have exported the majority of it's refined oil overseas.....again not helping prices today.

 

[FZ1]

You are right in that prices have risen because of uncertainty of supply. If we were to restart the oil production we had just over a year ago that would go a long ways to reduce uncertainty and increase the supply.

As for prices, my non expert opinion is that we will never see them back to what they were a few years ago.

Thanks for your reply. Agree. I guess hope would be that it took us a little over a year to get in this high price scenario, so, maybe if production restarts, we could recover our U.S. production + The KP is about 95+ complete and could provide 800,000 more barrels per day than previously, we would be O.K. Now if we could just complete what we started.

 

[FZ1]

The XL was rightly shut down and if it had been completed would have exported the majority of it's refined oil overseas.....again not helping prices today.

Sorry ,we can't agree on this one.

 

[PimTac]

Thanks for your reply. Agree. I guess hope would be that it took us a little over a year to get in this high price scenario, so, maybe if production restarts, we could recover our U.S. production + The KP is about 95+ complete and could provide 800,000 more barrels per day than previously, we would be O.K. Now if we could just complete what we started.

And to be clear, that pipeline is just one part of the equation.

 

[FZ1]

And to be clear, that pipeline is just one part of the equation.

Agree.

The Keystone Pipeline does not produce oil.
The majority of Keystone XL oil would have been sent to markets overseas and could have even led to higher prices at U.S. pumps.

There is no gas shortage. Have you seen any station outta gas? I have not nor have I heard of any.
I suggest you look at oil company profits... Oil is sold on the world market, not just to the US.

Sorry, can't agree with on those that

The Keystone Pipeline does not produce oil.
The majority of Keystone XL oil would have been sent to markets overseas and could have even led to higher prices at U.S. pumps.

There is no gas shortage. Have you seen any station outta gas? I have not nor have I heard of any.
I suggest you look at oil company profits... Oil is sold on the world market, not just to the US.

I can agree that the KP does not currently produce oil. Construction was stopped over 1 year ago on a Canadian pipe line to the U.S. that would have provided 800,000 barrels of oil per day. Sorry, but I can't agree with the rest of your post.

 

[FZ1]

I ordered a Tesla Model 3 Performance this past weekend. Two things about the vehicle really drew me to it - performance and efficiency ($/mi). We rented a Model 3 LR last year and the acceleration is downright addictive. If you're a car guy, you can't help but smile with every push of the go pedal. It's just fun.

A hybrid Accord would have been more practical and cheaper in the long run, but it would have been boring. If that's your jam, go for it! I'm a big proponent of people choosing what's best for them and enjoying it. I have no intention of trying to sell someone on a Tesla or any of the other cars in my garage (happy to share experiences, though). We all have different priorities that factor in to what suits us best. Don't like my purchase? Great! Don't buy one, it's obviously not for you.

We have other cars, so it's not going to be used as a daily driver. My daily is a 2006 TSX and we also have a 2005 4Runner, 99 Silverado, and 2022 Yukon XL. My wife homeschools our boys, so she doesn't have a daily commute. The Tesla will be her run around car and we'll take it out in the evenings and weekends when I'm home. We live in a rural area, so pretty much anything that most people are accustomed to being right down the road is 20 miles away from us. So, plenty of opportunity for us to enjoy the car on the open road (stop signs and curvy roads ).

As for charging, I'm going to install a welder outlet (6-50) in my garage. It should charge at a rate of 30ish mph and will cost me about $50 in materials to install. Supercharging is awesome, but rarely will be taking this ride on trips that will require refueling on the road.

You're cool with your purchase of the Tesla. I think some of us are saying that we don't want EV's forced on the public by, artificially, pricing gasoline so high that it damages low income individuals and our overall economy. I'll take my Tesla in Navy blue.

 

[PandaBear]

Now you know why solar was a no brainer for me. I had little doubt that prices would stay where they were 3 years ago.
My solar project cost break even point timeline continues to shrink. And I hate PG&E.

Depends on your timing really. You are comparing your solar price from years ago vs today's gasoline price or PG&E (reality SVCE in our area) price.

The biggest cost to EV is the battery depreciation, not the kwh to charge it.

 

[sst9303]

Agree.

Sorry, can't agree with on those that

I can agree that the KP does not currently produce oil. Construction was stopped over 1 year ago on a Canadian pipe line to the U.S. that would have provided 800,000 barrels of oil per day. Sorry, but I can't agree with the rest of your post.

The Keystone pipeline does indeed supply crude to several refineries in the United States including at least 3 here in Illinois, The keystone XL was to be an additional leg of that pipeline that was a money grab for export oil pushed by the API and a potential environmental disaster.

 

[PandaBear]

Does regeneration really add any meaningful charge back into the batteries? TFL Truck tested the Rivian on their toughest towing test and on the big downhill it held the 8000 lb load the whole way down with regeneration active (no brakes) and gained 4 miles of range. Seems really low.

Depends on how you drive. If the Rivian towing uphill is what you do, the amount of range they calculated is based on towing a load uphill. Going downhill will not get them all back due to the aerodynamic loss a trailer towing pickup is horrible at.

A prius prime or other EV will likely get back quite a lot if they are aerodynamic and didn't waste too much energy in the heat going uphill.

 

[PandaBear]

Australia is currently dealing with the issue of too much solar. Folks installed panels, expecting to get a healthy return on the power they piped back into the grid, but if the demand isn't there, or the level threatens stability (solar provides no inertia) it is curtailed, so people's feedback is rejected. Adding a battery would of course "solve" the problem, but that adds a massive cost to the system and undermines the economics.

It could be solved if EVs have DIY battery swap, if you can put 4 50lb module in the car's bay you can buy another 4 to charge at home while you drive the car around during the day. Since you are going to need battery to store the solar anyway and your car needs a battery anyways, it reduce the round trip loss to 1 way or none, depends on how you look at it. You also can design battery to last only 5 years instead of 10, and save money that way.