Feds busy in Detroit

[cousincletus]

Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
For those who are willing to have an intellectually honest conversation on the matter. Which of these statements taken from the article give a clearer picture of the situation, which statement uses numbers that are relevant to the big picture and which statement is a straw man argument. Is it just me who thinks that looking at just two models vs the domestics is silly and ignores the real facts. Isnt it more honest and revealing to look at the entire production numbers over a year span rather than just look at two models?

Is this more revealing and indicitave of reality....

......." According to the sales-weighted measure, the domestic content of the entire fleet sold in model year 2006 by the Detroit Three in the U.S. was 74.5%, compared with 42.3% for Asian-owned carmakers and 7.8% for Germanowned carmakers."

Or is this the honest way to look at things.....

...."For example, in model year 2006, the Ford Mustang had 65% domestic content and the Chevrolet Suburban 67%-both less than the Honda Accord at 70% and the Toyota Camry at 80%".


I'm perplexed how anyone with any modicum of intelligence cant see the fault with using only two models out of a complete line to argue numbers. And then have the nerve to accuse me of trying to have it both ways.....lol.

Just answer my question honestly oldmaninsc, which is more important and meaningful....The total number of cars produced and sold and how they are split.....OR.....The number of Accords, Camrys and Mustangs and their split?



Don't forget that the transplants bring their own parts suppliers over here, so that so called domestic content really isn't so much. Also, if they want to cherry pick cars for domestic content, mention the Prius, 4runner and others that have 0% domestic parts and the Malibu, Impala that has at least 80%.

 

[Herz]

Originally Posted By: cousincletus
Mexican content is NOT considered domestic, Canadian content is. Thar being said, Canadians buy a lot of American cars, so IMO that is fair. Japan, on the other hand...


Difference between canadian and mexican parts is imo quality. And the canadians buy more from us than the mexicans do. I will take a canadian built part vs a mexican one any day.

 

[oldmaninsc]

Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
For those who are willing to have an intellectually honest conversation on the matter. Which of these statements taken from the article give a clearer picture of the situation, which statement uses numbers that are relevant to the big picture and which statement is a straw man argument. Is it just me who thinks that looking at just two models vs the domestics is silly and ignores the real facts. Isnt it more honest and revealing to look at the entire production numbers over a year span rather than just look at two models?

Is this more revealing and indicitave of reality....

......." According to the sales-weighted measure, the domestic content of the entire fleet sold in model year 2006 by the Detroit Three in the U.S. was 74.5%, compared with 42.3% for Asian-owned carmakers and 7.8% for Germanowned carmakers."

Or is this the honest way to look at things.....

...."For example, in model year 2006, the Ford Mustang had 65% domestic content and the Chevrolet Suburban 67%-both less than the Honda Accord at 70% and the Toyota Camry at 80%".


I'm perplexed how anyone with any modicum of intelligence cant see the fault with using only two models out of a complete line to argue numbers. And then have the nerve to accuse me of trying to have it both ways.....lol.

Just answer my question honestly oldmaninsc, which is more important and meaningful....The total number of cars produced and sold and how they are split.....OR.....The number of Accords, Camrys and Mustangs and their split?


Like I said statistics can and usually are construed to make them whatever you want them to. Anyone with even half a brain knows that.
So I can't answer your question. It depends on your perceptive and how you want to "interpret" things.
You missed my point (not surprised) that this article is poorly written and has a lot of contradictions. I can write a similar article and post it on the web and pull stats out of my rear, but that doesn't make it fact!

So you can promote your agenda all you like but frankly I'm not the only one not buying it! Later!

 

[LS2JSTS]

Frankly, I dont care. I didnt expect an answer, just an indictment of the data.....how predictable.

You cant tell me whether it's more relevant to compare an entire product line and it's sales numbers vs comparing a few select models?......My perspective and interpretation or yours for that matter have no bearing at all on that question.

Which is it, the total sales OR the sales of a few select models.....which is relevant? Ignore the article and answer an honest and straight forward question without deflecting. Or take your ball and go home, it's your style.

 

[Samilcar]

Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS

Ask yourself, why the effort to always ignore the huge numbers of cars that are imported and have NO domestic content. Why the constant talk of the Camry and the Accord and their content VS some Domestic straw man with less. It's meaningless, the totals are what matter. The Camry and Accord numbers are nothing more than a single slice of reality, they dont represent the entire picture at all.


I don't purchase "the totals". I purchase just a few vehicles for myself and my family. I base a large part of the buying decision for those few vehicles on where the vehicle is produced. When we were shopping for a minivan a few years ago, Chrysler took themselves out of the running when they shut down U.S. (St. Louis) production of Grand Caravan's and T&C's and moved that production out of the country. Buying Mexican Fords or Canadian Chevys is NOT buying American IMO.

That "rationalization" you speak of seems to run both ways.

 

[LS2JSTS]

Originally Posted By: oldmaninsc


Like I said statistics can and usually are construed to make them whatever you want them to. Anyone with even half a brain knows that.




You mean like when someone ignores the big picture and cherry picks a statistic just because it alone supports their argument.....lol.

Anybody with half a brain can see and would readily admit that the entire production numbers are valid and that looking at only a few models out of that production is pure folly...misleading at best and like you say, playing with numbers.

Pot, say hello to the Kettle.

 

[LS2JSTS]

Originally Posted By: Samilcar
Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS

Ask yourself, why the effort to always ignore the huge numbers of cars that are imported and have NO domestic content. Why the constant talk of the Camry and the Accord and their content VS some Domestic straw man with less. It's meaningless, the totals are what matter. The Camry and Accord numbers are nothing more than a single slice of reality, they dont represent the entire picture at all.


I don't purchase "the totals". I purchase just a few vehicles for myself and my family. I base a large part of the buying decision for those few vehicles on where the vehicle is produced. When we were shopping for a minivan a few years ago, Chrysler took themselves out of the running when they shut down U.S. (St. Louis) production of Grand Caravan's and T&C's and moved that production out of the country. Buying Mexican Fords or Canadian Chevys is NOT buying American IMO.

That "rationalization" you speak of seems to run both ways.



Understood and agreed. I actually respect your stance and understand it. The difference is you are not blowing smoke and quoting irrelevant comments and accusing me of doing the same. You aren't focusing in on a straw man Accord-Camry argument and then acting as if that tells the whole story as others are trying to do.

Your argument is the NA argument, and that it's more American to buy a Transplant built here than a Ford built in Mexico. I've argued against this stance but for entirely different reasons than this thread and the "content" argument calls for. In that case, it's a profit and investment argument that is also tied to the overwhelming raw numbers of people that the Domestics employ here. Even if you acknowledge that the domestics build a lot of stuff offshore, they still employ and invest vast amounts MORE here in the States than the Foreign makes do. That is Fact, regardless of some trying to act as if there are NO facts. That is a fact, it's almost a 3:1 advantage Domestic vs Foreign as far as US employment figures go.

Now ask yourself, what should the domestic makers do? Tell me, where should they build their cars? Should they all be built here in the States? Should they only employ American workers and no one else? Should the Japanese companies do the same? Ford Motor Company has been an international company since the beginning, they founded Ford of Canada in 1904, less than a year after the company was founded. They were in Germany, England, Russia, France and many other countries before 1930. They are international companies and always have been. They compete on a world market against people with slaves for workers and you expect them to compete how? I ask in all earnestness, what would be your solution?

I'ts not rationilization on my part at all....it's called reality and dealing with it in the real world. NAFTA is here, we are stuck with it. You want to discuss rolling it back and getting rid of it, thats fine, but it will open a huge can of worms. IMO, whats best for the NA hemisphere is good for America. Mexico and Canada are important trade partners and anything that raises their standard of living helps us as well.

 

[oldmaninsc]

Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
Originally Posted By: oldmaninsc


Like I said statistics can and usually are construed to make them whatever you want them to. Anyone with even half a brain knows that.




You mean like when someone ignores the big picture and cherry picks a statistic just because it alone supports their argument.....lol.

Anybody with half a brain can see and would readily admit that the entire production numbers are valid and that looking at only a few models out of that production is pure folly...misleading at best and like you say, playing with numbers.

Pot, say hello to the Kettle.






You first. You have taken most everything I've said out of context.
Go read my first post. I asked "Is my MGM more American than my wife's Camry just BECAUSE it has an "American" name. "
YOU are the one that went off on all this other b.s. and sent me numerous p.m.s that were totally b.s. I never claimed that ALL Toyota vehicles are more "American" than Ford, GM or whoever.

What about the "joint ventures"?
We used to have a Mercury Villager. Is it more American than the Nissan Quest? They were initially the same vehicle with the Mercury being a "rebadged variant". Yet many people here would buy the Mercury and not the Nissan. Why? Because of the name.
THAT WAS MY WHOLE POINT. You seem to like to argue. Can you say "troll" boys and girls?

Again - people (like you) can dissect this all they want and figure out what country the steel came from and where all the parts are made and come up with a percentage. Have fun.

I never even said OR implied that one car was better than the other. Like someone else said it's more about what car works for me. Would I buy the Camry? No. It doesn't fit me, but it fits my wife just fine. As I said in another thread, she drives it about 99 percent of the time.

We actually set out that day to buy a Ford Focus. Unlike other dealers who try their best to keep you on the lot the Toyota salesman told us to go down the street and test drive the Focus - he was that sure we'd be back. Guess what? He was right. My wife didn't like the Focus at all.
When I bought the SUV I bought what worked for me and fit my needs - hauling, towing, comfort, etc. I didn't look at the name and say "GOOD" or "BAD".
The same with my MGM. The fact that is was a Ford product and I happen to like Ford was just a plus!

So do us all a favor and let it go. I'm not going to waste anymore of my time with this thread or you. Post all you want about me - attack me all you want! I'm through responding.

 

[LS2JSTS]

Still no answer?

Which is more relevant, total sales or the sales of a few models?




For the record, neither have I. I'm not making any claims here about who is better or best, I leave that to others. Please point out where I have in any way made that claim, or even said that you did. Half of that post above is completely irrelevant. Nor am I attacking you, just the invalid points you repeatedly make. Funny you post about our PM's yet you dont tell everyone how you called me an idiot in PM. Labeled me there, labeled me here in open forum as a Troll, accuse me of having an agenda....is there a guilty concscience at work here?


Before you go, answer the question, it's pretty simple and I've asked it three times now. Or, you can do your normal routine and post a long statement with little relevance, proclaim your superiority and huff off.....lol.


Helen, with all due respect, read the entire thread. This guy has labeled me a troll in open forum, called me an idiot in PM a few days ago....You can ban me if you like, but this guy IS an IDIOT with very little apparent reading comprehension skills.

 

[Win]

One of the things made clear in this weeks Toyota hearings was that material decisions regarding recalls and disclosure of safety related information, were made strictly in Japan and not in NA.

For a Mexican made Ford, or Canadian made GM, those decisions would be made domestically.

To me this is a material difference and the transplant automakers are still very much foreign firms, regardless of where their products are assembled or how much they want to wrap themselves in the flag.

What this has to do with potential antitrust violations, I don't know.

 

[LS2JSTS]

Good point. And you are right, it has nothing to do with anti trust.

It's my own fault, I put the link in here because someone asked how content was determined. It took off from there, sorry.