F-22 Raptor Might Be In Trouble

[BlueOvalFitter]

That doesn't sound right. I get that there are a lot of F-35 detractors out there, but there's no alternative. It was a very expensive project with a lot of moving parts. Many feel that the joint platform was a bad idea and it would have cost less and been more effective to just make three completely different, specialized aircraft rather than try to bend one platform to meet all of this. But abandoning it now would be pointless. It's working now after having a ton of teething pains.

I based my reply on the F-35 getting a lot of bad press. And, the A10 was/is getting similar bad press. They (the government) wants to put them out to pasture, but can't decide when. One day you read/hear these two jets aren't worth the money spent on them, then you read/hear they are the best thing/[jets] since sliced bread. Which one is it?

 

[IndyFan]

I based my reply on the F-35 getting a lot of bad press. And, the A10 was/is getting similar bad press. They (the government) wants to put them out to pasture, but can't decide when. One day you read/hear these two jets aren't worth the money spent on them, then you read/hear they are the best thing/[jets] since sliced bread. Which one is it?

Well, A-10 is popular because many a ground soldier has seen it obliterate insurgents holed up in cover. But it can't survive a near-peer or peer conflict. No way. The F-35 kills from so far out nobody on the ground can see it. But it does the job. And it can get there when the enemy has the ability to contest the skies. Lots of things can to the A-10's job against sub-peer opponents. And for less money. It needs to go. Unlike the F-22, I don't believe it would last a minute against the Chinese in contested airspace. It would only come into play after air dominance was secured. That's a tall order against China or a near peer opponent. It's done its job well, but its time has passed.

 

[Dave Hess]

Because the F35 is a multi-role plane whereas the F22 is primarily air superiority/dogfighting. And yes, the F35 (and it's future replacement) are the future of CAS and multi-role.

Did you work on fighter jets in the military ?

 

[BlueOvalFitter]

Well, A-10 is popular because many a ground soldier has seen it obliterate insurgents holed up in cover. But it can't survive a near-peer or peer conflict. No way. The F-35 kills from so far out nobody on the ground can see it. But it does the job. And it can get there when the enemy has the ability to contest the skies. Lots of things can to the A-10's job against sub-peer opponents. And for less money. It needs to go. Unlike the F-22, I don't believe it would last a minute against the Chinese in contested airspace. It would only come into play after air dominance was secured. That's a tall order against China or a near peer opponent. It's done its job well, but its time has passed.

The A10 was (my) our air defense/cover when the SHTF! It did its job, and it did it very well. I am so glad they were there when we needed them.

 

[javacontour]

I guess the claim is that once the weapons door is open and a missile or bomb released, it can be tracked and then locked on. But I'm skeptical. I thought the purpose wasn't that it's invisible to radar, but it's ridiculously difficult to lock on and continue tracking.

The way I understand it, and I'm certainly a layman here, the technology doesn't make planes invisible, but "low observable" meaning there is less radar return. For example, the sawtooth edges on cockpit and other openings help scatter radar away from the source to diminish the return. When open, the reflect more, making the aircraft more observable at that time.

Close the door and observability drops. But if you were observed, someone has a better idea about where you are.

Stealth is not about no observability but diminishing it, and it's not like a Star Trek Romulan cloaking device. More about Radar Absorbing Materials and shapes that don't return as much radar energy.

 

[tyman]

Did you work on fighter jets in the military ?

Nope. I was 11B/Infantry. Light and Mechanized on Bradley’s. Just a military/military history enthusiast. Vietnam MACV-SOG and LRRP ops are my big passion followed by WW2 German armor and then U-boats.

 

[wemay]

They need to worry about Evergrande and the propt up sham of an economy...


https://trinidadexpress.com/opinion...cle_05a21798-69c4-11ec-81a1-03360ba8afa1.html

 

[Zee09]

The only thing China is good at is
making viruses ..

 

[y_p_w]

I based my reply on the F-35 getting a lot of bad press. And, the A10 was/is getting similar bad press. They (the government) wants to put them out to pasture, but can't decide when. One day you read/hear these two jets aren't worth the money spent on them, then you read/hear they are the best thing/[jets] since sliced bread. Which one is it?

The A-10 is a one trick pony. A new one hasn’t been made in 35 years and they’re sitting ducks against a near peer adversary. They do seem to be effective at blowing up pickup trucks driven by insurgents. But as Astro said, they’re not effective if there are enemy fighters in the sky. But there are proponents, both in Congress and in the DoD. My understanding is that the USAF doesn’t particularly want them and have been trying to rid themselves of them for years.

The F-35 has always been controversial, starting with the concept as well as Boeing supposedly losing points for not looking sexy enough with the X-32. However, we're at a point where there are too many customers and too many of them in service to just cut bait. It's certainly never been as bad as the critics would make it out to be.

 

[BlueOvalFitter]

Nope. I was 11B/Infantry. Light and Mechanized on Bradley’s. Just a military/military history enthusiast. Vietnam MACV-SOG and LRRP ops are my big passion followed by WW2 German armor and then U-boats.

tyman, I too was an 11B (Infantry) and 62J (combat engineer).
Mess with the best, die like the rest! US ARMY! HOOAH!

 

[Cujet]

China is a technological powerhouse. We are in decline and it won't be too long before we are seriously surprised by some new wonder weapon. However, I'm not at all sure the hypersonic missile is that new fearsome Chinese weapon. I wonder how a Mach 10 hypersonic weapon can maneuver to shoot down a fighter jet? It is already incredibly difficult to get stable airflow and combustion in hypersonics. We've been working on them for North of 70 years.

Clearly, rockets can do the job of warhead delivery, and while some can now be intercepted, no one can get them all. The hypersonic is just another tool for delivery.

 

[Zee09]

China is a technological powerhouse. We are in decline and it won't be too long before we are seriously surprised by some new wonder weapon. However, I'm not at all sure the hypersonic missile is that new fearsome Chinese weapon. I wonder how a Mach 10 hypersonic weapon can maneuver to shoot down a fighter jet? It is already incredibly difficult to get stable airflow and combustion in hypersonics. We've been working on them for North of 70 years.

Clearly, rockets can do the job of warhead delivery, and while some can now be intercepted, no one can get them all. The hypersonic is just another tool for delivery.

Same thing they told us during the cold war...Russia...Russia...Russia...
We have been behind for centuries...

 

[Astro14]

China says a lot of things that are not true…

 

[y_p_w]

China is a technological powerhouse. We are in decline and it won't be too long before we are seriously surprised by some new wonder weapon. However, I'm not at all sure the hypersonic missile is that new fearsome Chinese weapon. I wonder how a Mach 10 hypersonic weapon can maneuver to shoot down a fighter jet? It is already incredibly difficult to get stable airflow and combustion in hypersonics. We've been working on them for North of 70 years.

Clearly, rockets can do the job of warhead delivery, and while some can now be intercepted, no one can get them all. The hypersonic is just another tool for delivery.

China is a manufacturing powerhouse. And part of the reason why they're a manufacturing powerhouse is Taiwanese companies that find them as a source of relatively inexpensive and reasonable high quality labor that just happen to speak the same language. Now there are many people from China who are world class engineers, and actually come to the United States to work at top companies. I have yet to work anywhere in my chosen field that there weren't several coworkers in my group from the People's Republic of China. Occasionally they even choose to go back to China. However, I think it's pretty telling that many of the top Chinese companies (Huawei for one) are setting up shop in Silicon Valley because they simply can't find the engineering talent (or at least enough of it) they need in China.

However, I'm highly skeptical of all these claims. A lot of claims coming from the PRC are more for domestic consumption than they are serious messages.

 

[ripcord]

Demographics are destiny as they say. China is going to age out before they become THE global super power due to sticking with their one child policy a few decades too long.

 

[y_p_w]

Demographics are destiny as they say. China is going to age out before they become THE global super power due to sticking with their one child policy a few decades too long.

It's kind of an oddball situation they have in China. I don't know if they'll age out, but they certainly haven't hit negative population growth. And there is some serious overcrowding in the big cities, and they have a lot of big cities. I don't know if they'll necessarily have a lack of talent, but they're generally going to have a smaller working age population trying to help support a lot of retirees.

They also have some weird issues that we don't have in the United States, such as more or less forced retirements in the private sector at age 50-55 for women and 60 for men.

 

[billt460]

The same people who worry so much about China's anti aircraft missiles, are the same one's who wouldn't be caught dead with a Harbor Freight tool in their box.

 

[BlueOvalFitter]

The same people who worry so much about China's anti aircraft missiles, are the same one's who wouldn't be caught dead with a Harbor Freight tool in their box.

I have a few HF tools in my box. I just posted the article because of it being interesting.

 

[billt460]

Demographics are destiny as they say. China is going to age out before they become THE global super power due to sticking with their one child policy a few decades too long.

That, along with the fact that sooner or later their people are going to rise up, and not allow their government to continue using them like a slave labor market. Loaning out their efforts to the highest bidder. This type of thing has happened before in other countries.

Governments cannot enrich themselves off the backs of their citizens for an indefinite period of time. It's only a question of when, before something goes bang over there.

If China's treatment of their citizenry was a solid cornerstone on which to build an economic powerhouse, we would see examples of it everywhere..... Instead there are only failures. And examples of what not to do.

 

[y_p_w]

That, along with the fact that sooner or later their people are going to rise up, and not allow their government to continue using them like a slave labor market. Loaning out their efforts to the highest bidder. This type of thing has happened before in other countries.

Governments cannot enrich themselves off the backs of their citizens for an indefinite period of time. It's only a question of when, before something goes bang over there.

If China's treatment of their citizenry was a solid cornerstone on which to build an economic powerhouse, we would see examples of it everywhere..... Instead there are only failures. And examples of what not to do.

Depends. It's actually a primarily private sector economy there now. There are a lot of people making a lot of money in China these days, although a lot of it is on the backs of factory workers. A lot of factory workers are from the countryside where they can actually make more money in the cites than from where they grew up. Sounds a lot like farm families in the US where the kids went off to college and decided they didn't see a future back on the farm.

Still - I know a lot of people from China, who do business in China, or who travel (or at least did before) a lot there. Most people there don't care (or at least can tolerate it) as long as their standard of living has improved. And having traveled there several times over the past 35 years, it has improved immensely. You go to work, keep your nose clean, and the government generally doesn't bother you. People are mostly free to buy what they want as long as they can afford it. But stand near the Great Hall of the People with a sign denouncing the government, and you will get arrested and who knows what else. It's certainly not like protesting in front of the White House. That's kind of the way it is, but for the most part it doesn't affect most people. And they allow pretty much anyone who wants to leave and can legally enter another country to do so. It's definitely not like the 80s where prominent Chinese athletes would have monitors when traveling overseas. I distinctly remember when the tennis player Hu Na decided to defect in 1982. These days, their prominent athletes are rocks stars and might drive fancy European sports cars.

And even if they don't completely trust their government, there's still a sense of national pride. A lot of what they do (like hinting that they could take down an F-22) is more for domestic consumption than anything else.

Their treatment of some minority groups certainly blows, but they're doing their best to keep the majority of their citizenry happy. And for the most part they've been happy. Is it like being in The Matrix where it's all done to keep people thinking that they're doing OK? The big problem would be if their economy tanked, and there are signs of that possibly happened. It might get to the point where they can't buy their way into success and out of problems.