EV charging example costs more than it would to fill up a premium fuel car

[Astro_Guy]

So here is my experience having owned a PHEV for 21 months:

1. Most of my daily driving is within the limited range of the battery and thus I basically have an EV on my hands the vast majority of the time.
2. Most charging is done overnight at home. That being said I have solar panels and will sometimes charge during the day if I have nowhere to go in the morning.
3. There are free Level 2 chargers nearby and everywhere for that matter. I spent an hour + on one today while having lunch nearby. No inconvenience whatsoever unless you are one of those folks who can pump gas and eat lunch at the same time.
4. I have yet to directly pay to use a charging station, but I do pay indirectly at places that offer them as an amenity. Typically these are hotels or B&Bs.
5. Pay to use charging stations near me and in general have one of three pricing models: time based, power (kwh) based, or a combination of these.
6. The time based pricing near me is typically $2 for the first hour. This makes no sense for me because my battery doesn't hold $2 of electricity and would only accept about 60 cents worth per hour. This model does work for a Tesla Model 3.
7. The power based pricing near me run between 10 - 35 cents per kwh at Level 2 charging rates. Most are at or near that 35 cent level. This compares to the 18 cents per kwh charged by my utility. In most cases it costs half as much to charge at home. Level 3 charging is a different matter but not applicable to me.

Now for those of you who like to make that argument that the grid cannot handle a massive increase in the number of EVs, you may not be right. Please see https://www.gridstatus.io/live which is a site reporting regional electrical demand, fuel mix and more. Have a look at the Nodal Price Map, especially at night. What you are likely to find is that there is a lot of surplus power available at night and the marginal prices drop to really low levels.

And as a final note for you folks concerned about the grid, ask yourself what will happen if the power can flow both ways and many of the EVs become part of a huge distributed storage array.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

Actually it does extend your OCI from a mileage perspective. Presently I am 11k miles into an OCI but ICE miles account less than a third of that. 20k miles in my use case might mean 6500 miles on the oil at most.

Your “oil change interval” never includes time when the engine is not running. If it does, you’re lying to yourself. You’re not 11k into an interval; you’re less than 3300 miles. That’s like saying folks who travel in their RV while pulling their vehicle behind the RV are “extending their OCI”… don’t be ridiculous.

 

[Astro_Guy]

Your “oil change interval” never includes time when the engine is not running. If it does, you’re lying to yourself. You’re not 11k into an interval; you’re less than 3300 miles. That’s like saying folks who travel in their RV while pulling their vehicle behind the RV are “extending their OCI”… don’t be ridiculous.

I think that we are saying the same thing from different perspectives. I was a twice per year oil change guy with a pure ICE but now it will be once in 18 - 24 months. The number of hours on the oil won't change, but the characteristics of those hours will. Short trip / cold start miles are giving way to mostly highway miles. Severe duty is going away. Longer OCIs are possible without severe duty.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

Longer OCIs are possible without severe duty.

You may be right… I just went well over 15k on a 3.5 EcoBoost with HPL oil, and saw better wear rates and waaay better TBN retention than the crowd who proclaims 3-5k OCIs are the only way to make the 3.5s survive…

 

[Brons2]

My Tesla Model 3 gets 3 or maybe 4 mph @ 115V. It gets 40+ at 240V.
The 1st thing I ask people who are considering an EV is, "How ya gonna charge? Do you have a dedicated 240V circuit available? Can your service panel accept another circuit?"

You can guess the response... It ain't pretty.

Not to be a contrarian, but I can (and have with a borrowed EV) live on 100% L1 charging for my daily needs. My wife, not so much.

This is relevant to us from the angle of "what happens with charging when we get a 2nd EV". I don't necessarily feel the need to put in a 2nd L2 plug. If I did so it would mainly be for vanity most likely i.e., to flex my electrical installation skills for bragging rights with family and friends.

 

[Brons2]

Correct, an improbable 2 or 3x would be a game changer, but is still not enough to anywhere near match the power to weight of fuels. 10X would be about the minimum necessary to power an airliner on very short hauls, and orders of magnitude X for intercontinental flights.

In reality a 787 would require a multi gigawatt battery to perform a normal long range intercontinental flight. To be clear, by weight today's best batteries have 1.5% the power of Jet-A.

Or, my battery powered 787 would need a battery that weighs about 15 million pounds, with Tesla's best Gen III 4680's. That's about 30X more than the airplane's Max Gross Takeoff Weight.

Improbable? I would say a 2-3x increase in battery density in the next 10-15 years is highly probable. There are so many scientists working on battery chemistries around the world.

As for widebody transport category aircraft, I think sustainable and/or synthetic fuels are the future there. There are much bigger gains to be made elsewhere than large aircraft, and as you note, this is a way higher gap, order of magnitude stuff, to bridge in battery chemistries and density to make this useful for commerical widebodies. IIRC I read something that said passenger aircraft account for 2% of all carbon emmissions, and we know already this is probably the most difficult place to decarbonize. Money and effort better spent elsewhere, that's the pragmatic view ATMO anyway.

 

[Brons2]

So here is my experience having owned a PHEV for 21 months:

1. Most of my daily driving is within the limited range of the battery and thus I basically have an EV on my hands the vast majority of the time.
2. Most charging is done overnight at home. That being said I have solar panels and will sometimes charge during the day if I have nowhere to go in the morning.
3. There are free Level 2 chargers nearby and everywhere for that matter. I spent an hour + on one today while having lunch nearby. No inconvenience whatsoever unless you are one of those folks who can pump gas and eat lunch at the same time.
4. I have yet to directly pay to use a charging station, but I do pay indirectly at places that offer them as an amenity. Typically these are hotels or B&Bs.
5. Pay to use charging stations near me and in general have one of three pricing models: time based, power (kwh) based, or a combination of these.
6. The time based pricing near me is typically $2 for the first hour. This makes no sense for me because my battery doesn't hold $2 of electricity and would only accept about 60 cents worth per hour. This model does work for a Tesla Model 3.
7. The power based pricing near me run between 10 - 35 cents per kwh at Level 2 charging rates. Most are at or near that 35 cent level. This compares to the 18 cents per kwh charged by my utility. In most cases it costs half as much to charge at home. Level 3 charging is a different matter but not applicable to me.

Now for those of you who like to make that argument that the grid cannot handle a massive increase in the number of EVs, you may not be right. Please see https://www.gridstatus.io/live which is a site reporting regional electrical demand, fuel mix and more. Have a look at the Nodal Price Map, especially at night. What you are likely to find is that there is a lot of surplus power available at night and the marginal prices drop to really low levels.

And as a final note for you folks concerned about the grid, ask yourself what will happen if the power can flow both ways and many of the EVs become part of a huge distributed storage array.

Going off of your #1 here, living in the exurbs, PHEV is not really that compelling to me because the distances are far to my office and to a lot of places we go on a regular basis. If PHEV had more EV only range, it might be more compelling, but then why not just buy a full EV and then you don't have to mess with a gas drivetrain and the maintenance involved, at all.

Another factor is that we don't take many road trips, so having the ability to do pure gas road tripping is not a factor for our use case. The ICE vehicle we use most of the time for trips is a commerical airliner.

Lastly, since there's such good lease deals now on EVs and used EV values have cratered, it's hard for me to make an argument for a hybrid or a PHEV from a financial standpoint. They don't offer any advantage for our use case and they don't cost less.

For other people, these arguments may come up a lot differently for their families and use cases and that is ok. PHEVs do make sense for lots of people who want some of the advantages of having an EV drive train but aren't ready to give up on ICE.

 

[JeffKeryk]

Not to be a contrarian, but I can (and have with a borrowed EV) live on 100% L1 charging for my daily needs. My wife, not so much.

This is relevant to us from the angle of "what happens with charging when we get a 2nd EV". I don't necessarily feel the need to put in a 2nd L2 plug. If I did so it would mainly be for vanity most likely i.e., to flex my electrical installation skills for bragging rights with family and friends.

Sure; each use case is different. In my case, the EV was part of a larger forward looking plan that started with solar panels. While I did not know we would get our 1st EV so soon, the goal was to go all in and complete the project.

The results have far exceeded my expectations. Glad you are fine with L1 charging.

 

[ecotourist]

I just checked the rate for electricity at my home vs Superchargers in the area. I didn't check the rates for other chargers. There are still a few free level 2 chargers in the area.

My average home rate (the all in price) 11.7 cents/kW-hr.
The Supercharger that has just opened in my neighbourhood isn't on the Supercharger map yet.
The Superchargers in greater Vancouver (where there are lots of Teslas) charge as little as 30 cents/kW-hr in off hours, but more typically 32 cents/kW-hr.
The Supercharger near Hope (which I can comfortably reach on one charge) 57 cents/kW-hr
The Supercharger at Merritt (which I might just be able to reach if I really pushed it) 55 cents/kW-hr
The Supercharger at Salmon Arm 62 cents/kW-hr
The Supercharger at Clearwater 59 cents/kW-hr
The Supercharger at Valemount 57 cents/kW-hr
all Alberta Superchargers (the province where gasoline is generally the cheapest) 92 cents/kW-hr
all Saskatchewan Superchargers 75 cents/kW-hr

The Supercharger rates in the region are 3 to 8 times my BC home rate. And people wonder why EV owners charge at home (the answer is cost and convenience obviously). And they remark on the cost of "filling up" at commercial chargers.

The higher rates in BC are in less populated areas which does make sense. Building and maintaining Superchargers costs money.

It looks suspiciously like Alberta (where there is a major oil and gas industry) is trying to discourage the use of EVs by charging by far the highest rates anywhere in the region.

 

[Snagglefoot]

BC Hydro charges about 2.5 times the average regular home power rate at their fast chargers. It’s the same price across the province.

 

[ecotourist]

BC Hydro charges about 2.5 times the average regular home power rate at their fast chargers. It’s the same price across the province.

For the benefit of non EV owners, BC Hydro's chargers are different from Superchargers (and a Tesla would require an adapter to charge at any of the BC Hydro chargers I've seen). But it sounds like they're quite a bit cheaper than Superchargers.

Are they fast? reliable?

Some Tesla owners have bought adapters (which cost in the range of $250) so they could use other charging systems. This was typically due to range anxiety at a time when there were a lot fewer Superchargers. An adapter wouldn't make financial sense for me as I almost never need to charge anywhere other than at home. I don't even use the free (Level 2) chargers I see here and there.

 

[fdcg27]

What I see here is that all of those who've put their money where the mouths are a very happy with their cars.
Those who decry EVs do so from a position of ignorance, not having any experience upon which to base an informed opinion. Some nonsense one sees online hardly counts.
I will say that based upon what satisfied owners of EVs have posted in various threads here that I'm seriously considering one as my next daily driver.

 

[Trav]

Those who decry EVs do so from a position of ignorance, not having any experience upon which to base an informed opinion.

And others do so from being informed and actually driving them. I have driven a mode S, Y and 3 and other than the unusable performance they are not the best made cars by any stretch of the imagination. At over .40 kWh (my rate) they are not cheap to charge and when maintenance does come in the form of a new battery or motor it would probably be the end of the car. Real world facts, hardly ignorance, ask these folks who claim to have all this experience with them how long they have owned them and how many miles they have put on them and where they live.

 

[Sedin26]

For the benefit of non EV owners, BC Hydro's chargers are different from Superchargers (and a Tesla would require an adapter to charge at any of the BC Hydro chargers I've seen). But it sounds like they're quite a bit cheaper than Superchargers.

Are they fast? reliable?

Some Tesla owners have bought adapters (which cost in the range of $250) so they could use other charging systems. This was typically due to range anxiety at a time when there were a lot fewer Superchargers. An adapter wouldn't make financial sense for me as I almost never need to charge anywhere other than at home. I don't even use the free (Level 2) chargers I see here and there.

Many of the BC Hydro chargers seem to be 50Kw while others are 100Kw. I read recently that they’re going to start installing 400Kw units.

As the sole electrical utility in the vast majority of the province, they should be able to skip some of the red tape when it comes to installing.

 

[JeffKeryk]

And others do so from being informed and actually driving them. I have driven a mode S, Y and 3 and other than the unusable performance they are not the best made cars by any stretch of the imagination. At over .40 kWh (my rate) they are not cheap to charge and when maintenance does come in the form of a new battery or motor it would probably be the end of the car. Real world facts, hardly ignorance, ask these folks who claim to have all this experience with them how long they have owned them and how many miles they have put on them and where they live.

Or ask someone how many batteries or motors they have replaced. Certainly there are many different EV manufacturers and they are all different, to one degree or another.
EVs are in their infancy as mass produced cars. It will take time to get a better feeling for battery life.

While there have been some real failures, like the Chevy Bolt and early Porsche Taycan, current studies are promising; better than expected. Of course most of these failures are under warranty.

"Across all years and models, outside of big recalls, only 2.5% have been replaced. This increase from last year is entirely due to older cars. For cars older than 2015, replacement rates are 13%, but under 1% for cars from 2016 and newer."

This makes sense for 2 reasons: Battery tech improvements and the older vehicles are just that; older.

I would be interested in any real world facts you have.

 

[Trav]

No offense but your recommendation is almost meaningless, you put less than 25K on the first one you owned and you just got this one, hardly a case for long term ownership. You live in a ideal climate and have charging opportunities many people do not have. Then there is this example which is one of many.

 

[ecotourist]

Many of the BC Hydro chargers seem to be 50Kw while others are 100Kw. I read recently that they’re going to start installing 400Kw units.

As the sole electrical utility in the vast majority of the province, they should be able to skip some of the red tape when it comes to installing.

Those are quite low charging rates. Some of our older Superchargers are 150 kW (potentially shared, though in practice almost never), and the newer ones which are what you mostly see in western Canada are 250 kW (unshared).

The deal with the 150 kW shared ones is the sharing is between adjacent stations. So people charge at every other station so there is almost never sharing (which would of course reduce your charging rate).

 

[ecotourist]

No offense but your recommendation is almost meaningless, you put less than 25K on the first one you owned and you just got this one, hardly a case for long term ownership. You live in a ideal climate and have charging opportunities many people do not have. Then there is this example which is one of many.

He's not having a great experience.

From his description he may be regularly charging to 100% (as he uses his Tesla for business and is keeping track of the full charge range) which (if true) is not the best approach for a long battery life. Even so, a Model Y should do better than that.

 

[Trav]

What bothers me is they keep replacing it with a used rehashed unit. Imagine if they said you should only fill it to 3/4 that is unacceptable. Why don't they just call 80% full and shut charging off.

 

[JeffKeryk]

No offense but your recommendation is almost meaningless, you put less than 25K on the first one you owned and you just got this one, hardly a case for long term ownership. You live in a ideal climate and have charging opportunities many people do not have. Then there is this example which is one of many.

Not sure I ever said I had long term EV ownership, especially from a miles perspective. I've said I don't put a lot of miles on any of my cars. We have discussed that before.
When I speak of long term ownership, I cite published studies and I point out the cars are in relative infancy.
Others seem to say "when this happens", etc. That's pure conjecture; please show some kind of evidence. Without evidence, that is the definition of meaningless.

You cited 1 owner, and a YT video at that. You understand that is hardly any kind of study.
No offense taken... All good.