Euro vs American

[SR5]

Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
I have a pathological hatred of spider charts!


Arachnophobia or BSphobia ?

I've not been convinced by every spider chart I have seen. I've seen low HTHS and low SAPS oils show better wear performance than a high HTHS and high SAPS spec oil in spider charts. I'm not convinced the pass mark for the spec reflects the field performance for the finished oil.

 

[CR94]

Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
... Second, I have a pathological hatred of spider charts!
I agree. They're only a lame subjective substitute for a table showing the relevant numbers.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: SR5
I agree, it would be good for a few more Asian car manufacturers spec A5/B5 oils. It's a useful spec that should be used more. Did we really need GM Dexos1 and Ford WSS-M2C-913-D, C when they both could have been well served by ACEA A5/B5. To be honest, I suspect both were based on the existing Euro A5/B5.

I would agree. I can sort of see GM's point with dexos. There's an identifiable logo and at least some sort of public education campaign. Member Falcon_LS did note that GM did call for an A1/B1 or A5/B5 (I can't remember which) in one of his GM vehicles in the Middle East, and the OLM seemed to be appropriately calibrated for such a lube.

But, you're right. I can't see what dexos1 (at least in 5w-30) would accomplish that A5/B5 couldn't have.

Ducman: What differences might they have been? Would those differences possibly have been part of GF-5, which is compatible with (but not required with) A5/B5? Personally, I'd think that if all dexos1 5w-30 options could be A5/B5, we'd still see A5/B5 on M1, M1 EP, black bottle Edge, and gold bottle Edge. But, we don't, not to mention Valvoline's fuzzy thinking on the topic.

 

[Ducman]

Originally Posted By: Garak

I can't see what dexos1 (at least in 5w-30) would accomplish that A5/B5 couldn't have.

Ducman: What differences might they have been? Would those differences possibly have been part of GF-5, which is compatible with (but not required with) A5/B5? Personally, I'd think that if all dexos1 5w-30 options could be A5/B5, we'd still see A5/B5 on M1, M1 EP, black bottle Edge, and gold bottle Edge. But, we don't, not to mention Valvoline's fuzzy thinking on the topic.


That was always my impression as well.
You raise valid points.
It wasn't until I saw "that" spider chart I mentioned, that my belief system was altered about dexos.

Regardless, whilst my new HSV is under warranty it will be getting the Mobil 1 I bought at Super cheap on the Boxing day sale.
I think despite the fact it has the dexos approval but no A5/B5 stated on the bottle, we all can agree it's a good oil(especially when on special) even though it's a resource conserving style of oil.
My main focus is to preserve warranty at this stage with a view to changing over to Shell Helix Ultra in the fullness of time.

 

[Garak]

Yep, that's true. Here, that would never be a concern, because finding an A5/B5 that wasn't SN/GF-5 already would be exceedingly difficult, and the majors are already dexos1.

Yesterday, I had to teach a god daughter how to buy oil for her Monte Carlo, which consumes a little bit. I showed her the Starburst and the Donut and all that, and showed her 5w-30, not any 20w-50 or stuff like that, because I don't provide roadside assistance in the winter.

Now, I just need to get her a case of oil and ensure she's paranoid about mixing, or whatever other idiosyncrasies I can pass on.

Of course, that thing needs dexos1 and A5/B5 like a hole in the head. It got Valvoline WB, since that's what it had at oil change time.

 

[SR5]

Originally Posted By: Ducman

Regardless, whilst my new HSV is under warranty it will be getting the Mobil 1
I think despite the fact it has the dexos approval but no A5/B5 stated on the bottle, we all can agree it's a good oil


Yes, M1 5W30 is a good oil.
The more I look at it, the more I see a well balanced design, it's a good oil.

 

[SR5]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Yesterday, I had to teach a god daughter how to buy oil for her Monte Carlo, which consumes a little bit.

I think you would have been well up to the job mate. A giant amongst regular oil buyers.

 

[JFAllen]

You can happily uses Helix Ultra ECT C3 or Helix Ultra AG. Both in 5W30, as they carry the Dexos2 certification which is a tougher spec to meet. Thus you will maintain warranty compliance.

(Personnel opinion below)

I believe Shell made the decision to only import Dexos2 oils to Australia to simplify their product stack. here For Shell's recomendation. Which is indeed ECT C3.

Been using ECT C3 in my turbo Saab 9-5 and it's honestly transformed the car. as Dexos2 replaced GM-LL-A-025 and GM-LL-B-025.

Regards
Jordan

 

[SR5]

Yeah, in Oz, the Holden Cruze 1.4L and 1.6L iTi turbo petrol engines spec the Dexos2 oil.
It's a stronger oil, and GM Australia are OK with it because it's Dexos.

 

[Ducman]

And that's where I get conflicted.

My understanding is that dexos is best suited (by a small margin) for petrol engines as opposed to dexos 2.
Otherwise, why would GM have both specs if one was universally superior to the other.

I believe in horses for courses, so for me dexos makes more sense for the LS3 engine and that's what GM intended as the engine design was always taking the oil grade and spec into consideration.

Don't get me wrong about the Shell offerings as I think they're all great in their own right.
It's just that if I were to put a Shell product into the engine, it would only be the 5w-40 grade Shell Helix Ultra as it would be a good step up in viscosity and in all likelihood more than adequate and best suited for my petrol engine.
As we all know it carries all the relevant specs one could imagine except dexos(obviously).

 

[SR5]

Originally Posted By: Ducman
And that's where I get conflicted.


Me too Ducman.

I recently noticed that some of the NetLube places said to use a Dexos2 (C3, diesel oil) in the small GM Holden (Chevy) Cruze iTi turbo petrol engines. I know ACEA C3 is used for both Petrol and Diesel in Europe, but I have never seen it suggest in Australia. So I wrote and asked them, here is their answer (edited for brevity, and personal data removed):

Quote:
Hi SR5,

In regards to the Cruze, JH Series, 1.6 Litre iTi Turbo Eng. 2013-2016 Holden have asked for the specification of DX2 5W-30 or 5W-40.

Castrol recommend their CASTROL MAGNATEC DIESEL DX 5W-40 which does meet the DX2 specification and can be used in both Petrol and Diesel vehicles as it meets more than one specification.

Valvoline recommend their SYNPOWER MST 5W-30/ SYNPOWER MST 5W-40 both products also meets DX2 specification and can be used in both Petrol and Diesel vehicles as it meets more than one specification.

These products are mainly marketed as Diesel engine oils however do meet requirements for both Diesel and Petrol engines which does cause some confusion.

 

[dlundblad]

Originally Posted By: JFAllen
You can happily uses Helix Ultra ECT C3 or Helix Ultra AG. Both in 5W30, as they carry the Dexos2 certification which is a tougher spec to meet. Thus you will maintain warranty compliance.

(Personnel opinion below)

I believe Shell made the decision to only import Dexos2 oils to Australia to simplify their product stack. here For Shell's recomendation. Which is indeed ECT C3.

Been using ECT C3 in my turbo Saab 9-5 and it's honestly transformed the car. as Dexos2 replaced GM-LL-A-025 and GM-LL-B-025.

Regards
Jordan


Is the Helix Ultra ECT C3 the non US's version of the Pennzoil Platinum AV?

I bought 12 quarts of the stuff (among roughly 40 quarts of other Euro oils), but was of the understanding that the C3 spec meant a lower TBN and was not suitable for extended drains. It carries the vw502 spec so I know it should be at least good for 10,000 miles, but I figured if anything it can be used for top offs.

 

[Olas]

Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46
German oil manufacturer approvals, such as LL-01, A40, and 229.5, are much tougher to meet and put performance ahead of fuel economy (for the ones mentioned). Therefore, it is generally accepted that the oils are of higher quality. Their use, off the shelf, by various race teams and their asking price appear to substantiate that.



THIS!

 

[Olas]

Originally Posted By: turnbowm
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
...I'm not sure where the 'in Europe, synthetic means PAO or Ester' comments come from. Most full synthetic 5W30/5W40's in Europe are full Group III (possibly with a bit of PAO for cold-flow trimming purposes). Most 0W-XX oils will contain an appreciable amount of PAO but that's only to get the cold-flow performance.

That's interesting. I always thought that all Euro Formula oils were Group IV (PAO) or Group V (Ester).


We had our specifications before PAO and Esters were on the shelves!

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: SR5
I think you would have been well up to the job mate.

It was Walmart, so it was interesting as always. This week, Walmart Canada has no one quart bottles on special, so she got introduced to the full price of Canadian oil, which she thought wasn't bad, since the last oil change was at the quick lube. She realized things are a bit different when I told her she can get five times the amount of oil for only double the price on an ordinary Walmart special. But, there were no 5 quart specials at this Walmart, either, so everything was priced off the charts except 5 gallon pails of HDEO and Walmart's own big pails. Of course, she needs to carry a spare couple quarts in her trunk, rather than making a 10:30 p.m. trip to Walmart for a top up.

ducman: The dexos1 stuff "might" be superior to dexos2 for gasoline vehicles, but perhaps only under certain circumstances. Higher sulphur gasoline with extended OCIs is certainly one scenario. I would suspect that dexos1 was primarily envisioned as a North American specification, for more than one reason. It does deal with that concern, not to mention the claimed advantages for ethanol blended fuels, and so forth. It's also got ILSAC type HTHS, which GM has been using since it essentially became available. The 5w-30 in dexos1 also certainly provided a continuity for contemporary GM owners. Someone who happened to use M1 with the older GM specs in his Impala and then grabbed the same product for a newer GM and/or the old GM, would be automatically dexos1 compliant just out of inertia. A switch to a higher HTHS dexos2 product in North America would have been a little more difficult from a logistical and customer education standpoint.

GM's adoption of 0w-20 obviously had some challenges, too, but finding a 0w-20 on the shelf in North America is very easy. Finding a C3 type product here takes a much more careful search.

Oddly enough, as I mentioned in another thread, the 5w-30 my G37 calls for doesn't have to be SM/GF-4 or newer. It can simply be SM or newer. Therefore, the dexos2 5w-30 products, which are also C3 and SN, are acceptable for me to use, but not in a GM gasser.

Of course, the OEM drain intervals are very short with the vehicle as compared to what GM is trying to accomplish.

 

[Ducman]

Originally Posted By: SR5
Originally Posted By: Ducman
And that's where I get conflicted.


Me too Ducman.

I recently noticed that some of the NetLube places said to use a Dexos2 (C3, diesel oil) in the small GM Holden (Chevy) Cruze iTi turbo petrol engines. I know ACEA C3 is used for both Petrol and Diesel in Europe, but I have never seen it suggest in Australia. So I wrote and asked them, here is their answer (edited for brevity, and personal data removed):

Quote:
Hi SR5,

In regards to the Cruze, JH Series, 1.6 Litre iTi Turbo Eng. 2013-2016 Holden have asked for the specification of DX2 5W-30 or 5W-40.

Castrol recommend their CASTROL MAGNATEC DIESEL DX 5W-40 which does meet the DX2 specification and can be used in both Petrol and Diesel vehicles as it meets more than one specification.

Valvoline recommend their SYNPOWER MST 5W-30/ SYNPOWER MST 5W-40 both products also meets DX2 specification and can be used in both Petrol and Diesel vehicles as it meets more than one specification.

These products are mainly marketed as Diesel engine oils however do meet requirements for both Diesel and Petrol engines which does cause some confusion.



The way I see it is if Holden asks for dexos 2 spec oil then they will probably have their reasons for it.
Assumedly, they are good reasons for the dexos 2 spec and it's not a typo.
I say this because I have discovered a disconnect with the specing of the fluid for the TR 6060 in this new car between the recommended fluid in the Owners Manual that correlates with the spare parts chain and the relevant AC Delco product which incidentally has been superseded to a different part number, and the information that the service department has available to them and is understandably working to as their bible.
In summary the service department are adamant(given their information) that DEX VI should go into it, when the universally accepted wisdom, the Owners Manual(identified by part number) and Tremec(the OEM) themselves state DEX III only.
Needless to say there is some toing and froing going on at the moment between the service department and myself which is difficult given I am trying to establish a good working relationship with the local Holden dealer for all my servicing requirements. Fortunately the service manager is largely on board, I just need to build relations with the underlings in the chain.

Anyway I am going off topic and it's the subject of a whole new thread in a different section of the forum.

Back on topic.
Interesting that you mention Valvoline MST which is approved to MB 229.51.
We have a couple of Mercs in the stable that call for MB 229.5(only) according to the Owners Manuals.
Our local Merc independent mechanic universally uses the Valvoline MST 5w-40 as their go to oil in just about everything if not everything believing it's ok.
We have only been using him for a couple of years on one of the vehicles with a service falling due once a year according to the service reminder on the dash.
Consider this, for the last 2 services and for the very first time in the cars' history since owning it from new, the low oil warning has been coming on well before the service is actually due.
During the last interval I actually had to top the oil up twice.
Now either the oil consumption is starting to suddenly skyrocket(bad) which is sort of understandable given the k's on it, or the new oil is burning off a lot faster.
No leaks are evident on the engine.
The spec for the Valvoline MST oil that he was using(MB 229.51), has an acceptance for a higher Noack tolerance.

To get to the bottom of it, I have started to supply him with the Shell Helix Ultra 5w-40 to see if there is an improvement in the oil consumption.
I know it's a stab in the dark but I may be able to kill 2 birds with the 1 stone if it works out, because I can have a single engine oil in the stash as both of the Mercs' and both the HSV's(in the fullness of time) along with the Maserati will be using it.
In accordance with the thread title/subject matter, I believe the Euro spec oils to be superior in service if only for the fact that they have largely to date called for an A3/B4 oil with a proven record rather than oils with resource conserving HTHS levels.

Consider that "meets the requirements" as you say in relation to the primarily diesel oriented oil in some cases may be a different kettle of fish to being best suited for a petrol engine application in service.

 

[Ducman]

Originally Posted By: Garak
ducman: The dexos1 stuff "might" be superior to dexos2 for gasoline vehicles, but perhaps only under certain circumstances. Higher sulphur gasoline with extended OCIs is certainly one scenario. I would suspect that dexos1 was primarily envisioned as a North American specification, for more than one reason. It does deal with that concern, not to mention the claimed advantages for ethanol blended fuels, and so forth. It's also got ILSAC type HTHS, which GM has been using since it essentially became available. The 5w-30 in dexos1 also certainly provided a continuity for contemporary GM owners. Someone who happened to use M1 with the older GM specs in his Impala and then grabbed the same product for a newer GM and/or the old GM, would be automatically dexos1 compliant just out of inertia. A switch to a higher HTHS dexos2 product in North America would have been a little more difficult from a logistical and customer education standpoint.

GM's adoption of 0w-20 obviously had some challenges, too, but finding a 0w-20 on the shelf in North America is very easy. Finding a C3 type product here takes a much more careful search.

Oddly enough, as I mentioned in another thread, the 5w-30 my G37 calls for doesn't have to be SM/GF-4 or newer. It can simply be SM or newer. Therefore, the dexos2 5w-30 products, which are also C3 and SN, are acceptable for me to use, but not in a GM gasser.

Of course, the OEM drain intervals are very short with the vehicle as compared to what GM is trying to accomplish.


I mostly agree.
Except dexos was always intended by GM to be a global spec.
Hence the move away from the preceding GM specs and excluding the older 10w-30 grade oil from their acceptance criteria for them and then leading to the subsequent introduction of dexos.
GM clearly had a vision of where they wanted to go and a progressive plan to get there, which is where we find ourselves now and for the foreseeable future.

I suspect dexos is indeed intended for long drain intervals and in accordance with GM's objectives in the main to match the Europeans.
Again it's in the context of a competitive global market and on different levels.

Actually speaking of the old Mobil 1 10w-30 grade that they(GM) excluded and made redundant as far as they were concerned.
With the current Mobil 1 5w-30 offering that is currently dexos approved, it is virtually identical to the original Mobil 1 in 10w-30 in terms of viscosity at 40C and 100C except the new stuff is not A5/B5 like the old 10w-30 was.

 

[JFAllen]

Originally Posted By: dlundblad
Is the Helix Ultra ECT C3 the non US's version of the Pennzoil Platinum AV?

I bought 12 quarts of the stuff (among roughly 40 quarts of other Euro oils), but was of the understanding that the C3 spec meant a lower TBN and was not suitable for extended drains. It carries the vw502 spec so I know it should be at least good for 10,000 miles, but I figured if anything it can be used for top offs.



I believe that Helix Ultra ECT C3 and Helix Ultra AG are the same oil (TDS are equal.) And that in the USA and Canada it's marketed as: Pennzoil Platinum Euro L

Here for TDS

This TDS is the same as Helix Ultra ECT C3 / AG

Hope this helps

Regards
Jordan

P.S: In Australia all EUro spec Helix Ulta Oils are manufactured in Europe. While 0W20 and 5W40 are manufactured in Hong Kong. Oddly, 1L bottles of 5W40 are from Thailand... Not sure where the Pennzoil Euro oils are blended.
As I said I use ECT C3 and cannot recomend it highly enough as an SN, A3/B4, C3 or Dexos(1)2() Oil.

 

[dlundblad]

Originally Posted By: JFAllen
Originally Posted By: dlundblad
Is the Helix Ultra ECT C3 the non US's version of the Pennzoil Platinum AV?

I bought 12 quarts of the stuff (among roughly 40 quarts of other Euro oils), but was of the understanding that the C3 spec meant a lower TBN and was not suitable for extended drains. It carries the vw502 spec so I know it should be at least good for 10,000 miles, but I figured if anything it can be used for top offs.



I believe that Helix Ultra ECT C3 and Helix Ultra AG are the same oil (TDS are equal.) And that in the USA and Canada it's marketed as: Pennzoil Platinum Euro L

Here for TDS

This TDS is the same as Helix Ultra ECT C3 / AG

Hope this helps

Regards
Jordan

P.S: In Australia all EUro spec Helix Ulta Oils are manufactured in Europe. While 0W20 and 5W40 are manufactured in Hong Kong. Oddly, 1L bottles of 5W40 are from Thailand... Not sure where the Pennzoil Euro oils are blended.
As I said I use ECT C3 and cannot recomend it highly enough as an SN, A3/B4, C3 or Dexos(1)2() Oil.


Thanks. I had a bunch of the older Euro L stuff when I mistaken the 504 spec with the 502 spec.. As a BITOG'r, shame on me. Interestingly enough, the older stuff is an A3/B4 whereas the new stuff is not. I thought about running it in her Volvo, but meh.. There's better options and I'm on year 3 of some sludge cleanup. Why change what's working? I ended up returning it only to find a bunch of Valvoline 0/5w40 had been marked down as well.

I have about 50 quarts of A3/B4 vw502 approved oils excluding the jugs of rebated M1 0w40 I have on hand.

$2 a quart for this stuff is a screaming deal.. Plain Jane synthetic not so much.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Ducman
Except dexos was always intended by GM to be a global spec.

For sure; at least, the marketing material stated as much, and I have no reason to disbelieve them. Of course, they always did have to consider market inertia, not to mention different emissions regulations, different fuels, and different fuel economy regimes.

When it comes down to it, given CAFE regulations, combined with the state of fuel in North America and us trying to lengthen OCIs, a dexos2 oil isn't quite as optimal. Yes, I'm the first guy to say it isn't all CAFE's fault that we run thinner oils, but CAFE is far from simply a passing consideration.

Getting Europeans or Aussies to side on a 0w-20 dexos1 oil might be problematic. I'm sure enough GM fans in North America are nervous enough about that. At least when dexos1 came out here, it did provide some continuity in some product lines.

To be sure, if I had a new GM vehicle right now and I were given the option of a dexos1 or dexos2 oil as interchangeable, as it stands, I'd have to choose the dexos1 option. Basically, Pennzoil Platinum 5w-30 dexos1 in a 5 L jug on special at just over $30 is a lot more economical than buying any of the dexos2/C3 options I've seen, which are only available in single litres, so far. In other countries, things could very well be reversed.

GM certainly had a vision, and I applaud that idea. But, reality often gets in the way.

I had higher hopes for dexos1, with it being more like the LL-01 and other European specs. You buy dexos1, you've got the right oil for your GM gasser, period. That worked fine as long as 5w-30 was the only dexos1 oil. With 5w-20 and 0w-20 tossed in (GM says 0w-20 now for all the 20 grade applications), that's a backwards move. The logo is still there, but people have to pay attention to viscosity again.

Here on BITOG, we tell every BMW owner that the LL-01 oils are all interchangeable and to forget the SAE grade on the bottle. With GM, you have to look for the dexos1 logo, but then pay attention to SAE grade all over again.