Euro vs American

[SonofJoe]

Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
Couldn't edit my last post but I wanted to add the following...

Many moons ago I did a 0W30 program with a European oil company for a German OEM that I probably shouldn't mention. The oil targetted factory fill but it was also sold throughout Europe as a service fill. That primarily PAO oil contained 20 - 30% Group III, which was as much as I could squeeze in to keep costs down. There was never any question that this oil wasn't a 'full synthetic'.


Good info. It appears GTL basestock is also a viable alternative to PAO for high VI oil grades like 0-30 and 0-40. Pennzoil and Mobil 1's 0W-40 oils are GTL base now. I wonder, cost-wise, how GTL compares to PAO.



Correct. GTL is like a Group III+ base oil with viscometric properties very close to those of PAO.

GTL base oils don't really have 'a cost' in the same way that PAO's do. GTL is made from Qatari natural gas that is provided free of charge. However there's the minor matter of the $US 24 billion that the Ras Laffan Fischer-Tropsch plant cost Shell to build! I suspect that the cost of GTL ranges between zero to infinity depending on whether a glass half full or a glass half empty kinds guy!

 

[1JZ_E46]

Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
Correct. GTL is like a Group III+ base oil with viscometric properties very close to those of PAO.

GTL base oils don't really have 'a cost' in the same way that PAO's do. GTL is made from Qatari natural gas that is provided free of charge. However there's the minor matter of the $US 24 billion that the Ras Laffan Fischer-Tropsch plant cost Shell to build! I suspect that the cost of GTL ranges between zero to infinity depending on whether a glass half full or a glass half empty kinds guy!


Well, assuming a $0 input to the process, there are still costs to turn gas into a liquid. From what I read, it is mainly used to produce liquid fuel from natural gas, and oil basestock is a by-product. I I wonder what they sell the finished oil basestock for. Mobil must be buying their GTL basestock for 0W-40 "FS" from Shell?

 

[SonofJoe]

Correct. It may be hailed as fantastic for engine oils but GTL base oil is basically the residual gunk that's left after you've converted the bulk of your natural gas to naphtha, kerosene and diesel. And that's the problem. With crude costing $US 50/barrel, you have to convert a lot of gas for lots of years simply just to pay off your investment. The fact that other oil companies abandoned GTL tells you a lot about how uneconomic this process is at times of low crude prices.

You're also right that a transfer price will exist between Shell and Mobil. I suspect this will be slightly lower than typical PAO but higher than bog standard Group III. Unlike Group I, II & III base oils, there's no posted pricing for PAO because it's a relatively small market. As such it's hard to guess at how PAO and GTL might stack up cost wise.

 

[SonofJoe]

Originally Posted By: Wolf359
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
A couple of additional comments..

Traditionally Euro oils have been far better on seal elastomer compatibility.

Euro oils tend to be based on low SSI VII polymers. As such they are far less prone to the kind of mechanical/thermal induced shear you will get in an engine. All things being equal, this makes the oil more expensive, necessitates a higher level of DI and a higher quality base oil mix for a given viscosity grade (particularly in semi-synthetics).

Euro oils tend to have lower Noack volatility. Some US PCMO's have Noacks that any sane person would say are far too high.

Euro oils all tend to be formulated for dual use (ie both gasoline & diesel engines) whereas US PCMOs traditionally only take into account performance on gasoline engines. As such Euro oils should give you a cleaner engine where crud is much better suspended in the oil. They also tend to last a bit longer.

One last thing. I'm not sure where the 'in Europe, synthetic means PAO or Ester' comments come from. Most full synthetic 5W30/5W40's in Europe are full Group III (possibly with a bit of PAO for cold-flow trimming purposes). Most 0W-XX oils will contain an appreciable amount of PAO but that's only to get the cold-flow performance.


Care to comment on the difference between MB 229.5 and MB 229.51? I believe MB 229.51 is approved for both gas and diesel and 229.5 is just for gas. However if you just have a gas engine, which one would you prefer? I think MB 229.5 is preferred as you can get it in 0w40, but most 229.51 tend to be 5w40.



I've been away for to long to give a decent answer to your question about the differences between MB229.5 and 229.51. As I recall the 'extra' 1 used to be to denote a lower ash variant of the oil, probably for diesel cars fitted with a DPF but I could be wrong.

I have to say that I regard MB specced oils much the same way as I regard their cars; irritatingly over-engineered, lots of surprise and delight features that do neither, needlessly expensive and sold to people who obsess about buying 'the best' (even if objectively it isn't).

 

[Solarent]

Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
Correct. It may be hailed as fantastic for engine oils but GTL base oil is basically the residual gunk that's left after you've converted the bulk of your natural gas to naphtha, kerosene and diesel. And that's the problem. With crude costing $US 50/barrel, you have to convert a lot of gas for lots of years simply just to pay off your investment. The fact that other oil companies abandoned GTL tells you a lot about how uneconomic this process is at times of low crude prices.

You're also right that a transfer price will exist between Shell and Mobil. I suspect this will be slightly lower than typical PAO but higher than bog standard Group III. Unlike Group I, II & III base oils, there's no posted pricing for PAO because it's a relatively small market. As such it's hard to guess at how PAO and GTL might stack up cost wise.


GTL baseoils from Shell aren't readily available, they are keeping it internally as far as I know. However I am told that the few people who have been able to get some that the price is more in line with Group III than PAO.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46
Mobil must be buying their GTL basestock for 0W-40 "FS" from Shell?

Not sure that's correct. There has been some talk that XOM has their own GTL production facility.

 

[1JZ_E46]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46
Mobil must be buying their GTL basestock for 0W-40 "FS" from Shell?

Not sure that's correct. There has been some talk that XOM has their own GTL production facility.


I thought XOM scrapped their GTL plant back in 2007? I don't see them being able to produce internally the volumes necessary, at a price-point lower than VISOM, without a dedicated plant. I could be wrong.

 

[SonofJoe]

Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46
Mobil must be buying their GTL basestock for 0W-40 "FS" from Shell?

Not sure that's correct. There has been some talk that XOM has their own GTL production facility.


I thought XOM scrapped their GTL plant back in 2007? I don't see them being able to produce internally the volumes necessary, at a price-point lower than VISOM, without a dedicated plant. I could be wrong.


Didn't the VISOM plant blow up in spectacular fashion some years ago? Did it, like Lazarus, rise from the dead?

BTW, VISOM was the best Group III I ever played with by a long chalk. Like GTL, it wasn't that that far behind PAO in terms of its blend properties.

 

[Solarent]

Originally Posted By: Wolf359
Care to comment on the difference between MB 229.5 and MB 229.51? I believe MB 229.51 is approved for both gas and diesel and 229.5 is just for gas. However if you just have a gas engine, which one would you prefer? I think MB 229.5 is preferred as you can get it in 0w40, but most 229.51 tend to be 5w40.


The specifications are very similar. Here are some of the differences:
229.51 has a lower SA requirement - probably to allow for the diesels
229.5 has a higher TBN requirement - but there is no saying that 229.51 oils can't also have the higher TBN
229.5 allows more sludge (barely) and requires less cam and piston ring wear (barely) in some of the MB engine tests.
229.5 has a higher fuel economy improvement requirement

On the whole, they are pretty close to the same.

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46
I thought XOM scrapped their GTL plant back in 2007? I don't see them being able to produce internally the volumes necessary, at a price-point lower than VISOM, without a dedicated plant. I could be wrong.


Well they scrapped the building of the Qatar plant. Is that all there was (is)?

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: Solarent
229.5 has a higher TBN requirement - but there is no saying that 229.51 oils can't also have the higher TBN

But it's hard to achieve high TBN while simultaneously cutting add pack in order to maintain low SA content.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: Wolf359
Care to comment on the difference between MB 229.5 and MB 229.51? I believe MB 229.51 is approved for both gas and diesel and 229.5 is just for gas. However if you just have a gas engine, which one would you prefer? I think MB 229.5 is preferred as you can get it in 0w40, but most 229.51 tend to be 5w40.

The main issue in the US was our gasoline quality. Our gasoline historically has not been Ultra Low Sulfur (ULS) like it is in Europe, although that is now changing.

An oil with weaker add pack designed to protect DPF (such as 229.51) could not make it in the US through the entire long OCI in Euro gasoline cars because the add pack was getting depleted too fast here due to sulfur in gasoline. That's why if you wanted to stick to factory recommended OCIs in your gasoline Euro engine in the US, you were better off running 229.5 oil instead of 229.51.

 

[SonofJoe]

I've heard this theory before but I would be very surprised if such small differences in gasoline sulphur levels would impact TBN in this way.

Most of the 'acidity' that overbased detergents are added to deal with is generated from the oxidation of base oils; not by conversion of fuel sulphur to sulphurous acids. The great bulk of sulphur in fuel is burnt to gaseous SOx and exits the combustion chambers along with rest of the exhaust and is never neutralised (which is why exhaust pipes corrode with age). The thermal/oxidative breakdown of base oils to carboxylic acids does need to be neutralised because these acids have no easy way of leaving the crankcase. Obviously some SOx will condense with water (especially when the engine is cold) to put some weak acid in the sump and this will be neutralised but the amounts will be tiny.

Just to put this in some sort of perspective, it's still possible to find engine oils in EMEA that are primarily based on Group I base oils containing 1% sulphur and these have similar TBN requirements to sulphur-free Group II oils.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
I've heard this theory before but I would be very surprised if such small differences in gasoline sulphur levels would impact TBN in this way.

Maybe it's something else that impacts TBN then, but we've had a number of UOA reports on low-SAPS oils in gasoline engines here in the US that had TBN depleted quickly.

 

[SonofJoe]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
I've heard this theory before but I would be very surprised if such small differences in gasoline sulphur levels would impact TBN in this way.

Maybe it's something else that impacts TBN then, but we've had a number of UOA reports on low-SAPS oils in gasoline engines here in the US that had TBN depleted quickly.


These low SAP oils deplete their TBN just as quickly on this side of the pond! It's one of the reasons I always argued that low-SAP oils are a fundamentally bad thing!

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
Originally Posted By: FordCapriDriver
Originally Posted By: turnbowm
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
...I'm not sure where the 'in Europe, synthetic means PAO or Ester' comments come from. Most full synthetic 5W30/5W40's in Europe are full Group III (possibly with a bit of PAO for cold-flow trimming purposes). Most 0W-XX oils will contain an appreciable amount of PAO but that's only to get the cold-flow performance.

That's interesting. I always thought that all Euro Formula oils were Group IV (PAO) or Group V (Ester).

ONLY GERMANY requires that an oil must be Full Groupp IV or V to be a full synthetic, the rest of Europe does not.



I've never ever heard of that being the case. Nor could I envision how it could ever happen.

First, yes the German OEMs are important but in terms of crankcase oil development, the Germans are a bit of a non-entity. Yes they have Fuchs (mainly OEM stuff), LiquiMoly & Pentosin (mainly Industrial & Driveline) but these firms are tiny minnows relative to Shell & BP/Castrol. The Germans don't have the market clout or development clout to impose such a rule.

Second, like any EU country, Germany is bound by EU law. If you, on a National basis want to mandate 'synthetic only equals PAO & Esters', then this would be construed as a restraint on trade and deemed illegal. The EU is very hot on this kind of thing.

Third, the two giants of the engine oil industry, Shell & Castrol run their respective businesses as coordinated 'Global' businesses. Yes there is a bit of National flavour but outside of German OEM specific programs, I can't see either company running say a market general 5W30 SN/A3/B4/MB/VW program with PAO purely for Fritz. The costs would be prohibitively high and the volumes far too small for this to be viable. They would get given Group III stuff just like everyone else and have to lump it!

As I said before 0W-XX oils (like Castrol 0W40) would have to be primarily PAO/ester based but that because it technically/viscometrically needs to be, not because of some arcane rule that all German synthetics MUST be so.

Very simple. Choose certain oils that are available in Germany vs. UK vs. US for example. Check on Amazon. You will see that for example Mobil1 0W40 or 5W30 ESP in Germany is sold under SHC technology.
In the U.S. is sold as Full Synthetic.
German law does not require from oil to be GrIV or V to be synthetic. What German law says is that you cannot advertise as Full Synthetic. That is where HC and other names came from.
So let's be clear, German law does not have to do anything with how you make oil, but how you advertise oil. Mobil1 0W40 in Germany is advertised as SHC oil.
Here is example:

Look at Mobil1 5W30 ESP, on German Amazon is available under SHC technology:
German Amazon

Look at French Amazon. It is advertised as Full Synthetic oil:
French Amazon

 

[1JZ_E46]

Originally Posted By: edyvw
Very simple. Choose certain oils that are available in Germany vs. UK vs. US for example. Check on Amazon. You will see that for example Mobil1 0W40 or 5W30 ESP in Germany is sold under SHC technology.
In the U.S. is sold as Full Synthetic.
German law does not require from oil to be GrIV or V to be synthetic. What German law says is that you cannot advertise as Full Synthetic. That is where HC and other names came from.
So let's be clear, German law does not have to do anything with how you make oil, but how you advertise oil. Mobil1 0W40 in Germany is advertised as SHC oil.
Here is example:

Look at Mobil1 5W30 ESP, on German Amazon is available under SHC technology:
German Amazon

Look at French Amazon. It is advertised as Full Synthetic oil:
French Amazon


This is how I always understood it as well.

 

[SonofJoe]

Ah, that figures. It's one of those meaningless 'accepted conventions' that the Germans have; like not drilling holes on a Sunday (true!).

 

[SR5]

Some of those German accepted conventions can be most excellent. Such as Beer = Food. I was in Bavaria and Swabia recently, and because you can eat on the train, you can also drink beer on the train. Because beer is a type of food !!! Most excellent.

 

[TiredTrucker]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete

The main issue in the US was our gasoline quality. Our gasoline historically has not been Ultra Low Sulfur (ULS) like it is in Europe, although that is now changing.

An oil with weaker add pack designed to protect DPF (such as 229.51) could not make it in the US through the entire long OCI in Euro gasoline cars because the add pack was getting depleted too fast here due to sulfur in gasoline. That's why if you wanted to stick to factory recommended OCIs in your gasoline Euro engine in the US, you were better off running 229.5 oil instead of 229.51.


30 ppm sulfur (current standard) doesn't seem as extreme as it sounds. EPA wants down to 10 ppm this year, but nothing fully mandated. If we were talking about 500 ppm diesel (the previous standard before now) as opposed to 15 ppm diesel, now that would be a major deal. I don't buy the argument that U.S. gasoline sulfur levels are as extreme a problem as being made out.