Euro vs American
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Yes.
But you're going to have to ask a more specific question to get a more specific answer.
But you're going to have to ask a more specific question to get a more specific answer.
I assume you mean API specified oils vs. ACEA? Then yes. If you just mean an oil that happens to be manufactured in North America vs. Europe, then no.
Specifications mean something, as opposed to opinion or "my car loves that oil" which you will see often on this site. Take a look at Lubrizol's site at the Relative Performance Tool. That will show you many of the differences in a graphical format.
https://www.lubrizol.com/en/Lubricant-an...erformance-Tool
Specifications mean something, as opposed to opinion or "my car loves that oil" which you will see often on this site. Take a look at Lubrizol's site at the Relative Performance Tool. That will show you many of the differences in a graphical format.
https://www.lubrizol.com/en/Lubricant-an...erformance-Tool
Euro oils that say Synthetic are REALLY Synthetic. PAO is the main lab produced synthetic base for Group IV stock Synthetic Oils. Base I, II & III are all dino oils.
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Yes, there are differences between API and ACEA specifications, for example American 5W30 Oils tend to be on the thin end of viscosity for a 30 grade, they have low Zinc and phosphorous and low HTHS viscosity, most American 5W30 oils are SN/GF-5 which is a spec designed for maximising fuel economy.
A European API SN/ACEA A3/B4 oil will be on the thicker end for a 30 grade, it will have a higher HTHS viscosity of 3.5 at minimum, they typically have higher levels of antiwear additives, and in the case of Germany, Group III base stock synthetic oils cannot be labeled as full synthetic, as they are not real synthetics, just very refined petroleum based oils.
German standards require a higher quality Full Group IV or V base stock to qualify as a full synthetic.
Being a new guy i hope you sort of get what i'm saying, regardless if you know what HTHS and Different groups of base stocks are
A European API SN/ACEA A3/B4 oil will be on the thicker end for a 30 grade, it will have a higher HTHS viscosity of 3.5 at minimum, they typically have higher levels of antiwear additives, and in the case of Germany, Group III base stock synthetic oils cannot be labeled as full synthetic, as they are not real synthetics, just very refined petroleum based oils.
German standards require a higher quality Full Group IV or V base stock to qualify as a full synthetic.
Being a new guy i hope you sort of get what i'm saying, regardless if you know what HTHS and Different groups of base stocks are
Originally Posted By: Vern_in_IL
Euro oils that say Synthetic are REALLY Synthetic.
Only in Germany.
Euro oils that say Synthetic are REALLY Synthetic.
Only in Germany.
Base stock has become almost completely irrelevant these days as the performance specifications of a hydrocracked synthetic have improved (especially when combined with a percentage of PAO) to the point they exceed the performance of a majority PAO in some aspects. This was shown years ago when ExxonMobil introduced Visom and it has continued to improve today. People who call a hydrocracked product "just highly refined mineral oil" have no clue what the process entails and are only repeating what they have read on the Internet.
Go by what specifications the oil actually does or does not carry. This is the only true measure of performance.
Go by what specifications the oil actually does or does not carry. This is the only true measure of performance.
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Go by what specifications the oil actually does or does not carry. This is the only true measure of performance.
+1
Go by what specifications the oil actually does or does not carry. This is the only true measure of performance.
+1
A couple of additional comments..
Traditionally Euro oils have been far better on seal elastomer compatibility.
Euro oils tend to be based on low SSI VII polymers. As such they are far less prone to the kind of mechanical/thermal induced shear you will get in an engine. All things being equal, this makes the oil more expensive, necessitates a higher level of DI and a higher quality base oil mix for a given viscosity grade (particularly in semi-synthetics).
Euro oils tend to have lower Noack volatility. Some US PCMO's have Noacks that any sane person would say are far too high.
Euro oils all tend to be formulated for dual use (ie both gasoline & diesel engines) whereas US PCMOs traditionally only take into account performance on gasoline engines. As such Euro oils should give you a cleaner engine where crud is much better suspended in the oil. They also tend to last a bit longer.
One last thing. I'm not sure where the 'in Europe, synthetic means PAO or Ester' comments come from. Most full synthetic 5W30/5W40's in Europe are full Group III (possibly with a bit of PAO for cold-flow trimming purposes). Most 0W-XX oils will contain an appreciable amount of PAO but that's only to get the cold-flow performance.
Traditionally Euro oils have been far better on seal elastomer compatibility.
Euro oils tend to be based on low SSI VII polymers. As such they are far less prone to the kind of mechanical/thermal induced shear you will get in an engine. All things being equal, this makes the oil more expensive, necessitates a higher level of DI and a higher quality base oil mix for a given viscosity grade (particularly in semi-synthetics).
Euro oils tend to have lower Noack volatility. Some US PCMO's have Noacks that any sane person would say are far too high.
Euro oils all tend to be formulated for dual use (ie both gasoline & diesel engines) whereas US PCMOs traditionally only take into account performance on gasoline engines. As such Euro oils should give you a cleaner engine where crud is much better suspended in the oil. They also tend to last a bit longer.
One last thing. I'm not sure where the 'in Europe, synthetic means PAO or Ester' comments come from. Most full synthetic 5W30/5W40's in Europe are full Group III (possibly with a bit of PAO for cold-flow trimming purposes). Most 0W-XX oils will contain an appreciable amount of PAO but that's only to get the cold-flow performance.
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Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Go by what specifications the oil actually does or does not carry. This is the only true measure of performance.
+1
+2
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Go by what specifications the oil actually does or does not carry. This is the only true measure of performance.
+1
+2
German oil manufacturer approvals, such as LL-01, A40, and 229.5, are much tougher to meet and put performance ahead of fuel economy (for the ones mentioned). Therefore, it is generally accepted that the oils are of higher quality. Their use, off the shelf, by various race teams and their asking price appear to substantiate that.
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
...I'm not sure where the 'in Europe, synthetic means PAO or Ester' comments come from. Most full synthetic 5W30/5W40's in Europe are full Group III (possibly with a bit of PAO for cold-flow trimming purposes). Most 0W-XX oils will contain an appreciable amount of PAO but that's only to get the cold-flow performance.
That's interesting. I always thought that all Euro Formula oils were Group IV (PAO) or Group V (Ester).
...I'm not sure where the 'in Europe, synthetic means PAO or Ester' comments come from. Most full synthetic 5W30/5W40's in Europe are full Group III (possibly with a bit of PAO for cold-flow trimming purposes). Most 0W-XX oils will contain an appreciable amount of PAO but that's only to get the cold-flow performance.
That's interesting. I always thought that all Euro Formula oils were Group IV (PAO) or Group V (Ester).
Originally Posted By: turnbowm
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
...I'm not sure where the 'in Europe, synthetic means PAO or Ester' comments come from. Most full synthetic 5W30/5W40's in Europe are full Group III (possibly with a bit of PAO for cold-flow trimming purposes). Most 0W-XX oils will contain an appreciable amount of PAO but that's only to get the cold-flow performance.
That's interesting. I always thought that all Euro Formula oils were Group IV (PAO) or Group V (Ester).
ONLY GERMANY requires that an oil must be Full Groupp IV or V to be a full synthetic, the rest of Europe does not.
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
...I'm not sure where the 'in Europe, synthetic means PAO or Ester' comments come from. Most full synthetic 5W30/5W40's in Europe are full Group III (possibly with a bit of PAO for cold-flow trimming purposes). Most 0W-XX oils will contain an appreciable amount of PAO but that's only to get the cold-flow performance.
That's interesting. I always thought that all Euro Formula oils were Group IV (PAO) or Group V (Ester).
ONLY GERMANY requires that an oil must be Full Groupp IV or V to be a full synthetic, the rest of Europe does not.
Originally Posted By: FordCapriDriver
ONLY GERMANY requires that an oil must be Full Groupp IV or V to be a full synthetic, the rest of Europe does not.
Exactly. For those that really care about Group IV/V (in the U.S.), find a U.S.-available oil that sells in Germany under the name "Fully Synthetic." Castrol 0W-40, Liqui-Moly Synthoil Energy 0W-40, and Motul 0W-40 X-max come to mind.
ONLY GERMANY requires that an oil must be Full Groupp IV or V to be a full synthetic, the rest of Europe does not.
Exactly. For those that really care about Group IV/V (in the U.S.), find a U.S.-available oil that sells in Germany under the name "Fully Synthetic." Castrol 0W-40, Liqui-Moly Synthoil Energy 0W-40, and Motul 0W-40 X-max come to mind.
Originally Posted By: FordCapriDriver
Originally Posted By: turnbowm
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
...I'm not sure where the 'in Europe, synthetic means PAO or Ester' comments come from. Most full synthetic 5W30/5W40's in Europe are full Group III (possibly with a bit of PAO for cold-flow trimming purposes). Most 0W-XX oils will contain an appreciable amount of PAO but that's only to get the cold-flow performance.
That's interesting. I always thought that all Euro Formula oils were Group IV (PAO) or Group V (Ester).
ONLY GERMANY requires that an oil must be Full Groupp IV or V to be a full synthetic, the rest of Europe does not.
I've never ever heard of that being the case. Nor could I envision how it could ever happen.
First, yes the German OEMs are important but in terms of crankcase oil development, the Germans are a bit of a non-entity. Yes they have Fuchs (mainly OEM stuff), LiquiMoly & Pentosin (mainly Industrial & Driveline) but these firms are tiny minnows relative to Shell & BP/Castrol. The Germans don't have the market clout or development clout to impose such a rule.
Second, like any EU country, Germany is bound by EU law. If you, on a National basis want to mandate 'synthetic only equals PAO & Esters', then this would be construed as a restraint on trade and deemed illegal. The EU is very hot on this kind of thing.
Third, the two giants of the engine oil industry, Shell & Castrol run their respective businesses as coordinated 'Global' businesses. Yes there is a bit of National flavour but outside of German OEM specific programs, I can't see either company running say a market general 5W30 SN/A3/B4/MB/VW program with PAO purely for Fritz. The costs would be prohibitively high and the volumes far too small for this to be viable. They would get given Group III stuff just like everyone else and have to lump it!
As I said before 0W-XX oils (like Castrol 0W40) would have to be primarily PAO/ester based but that because it technically/viscometrically needs to be, not because of some arcane rule that all German synthetics MUST be so.
Originally Posted By: turnbowm
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
...I'm not sure where the 'in Europe, synthetic means PAO or Ester' comments come from. Most full synthetic 5W30/5W40's in Europe are full Group III (possibly with a bit of PAO for cold-flow trimming purposes). Most 0W-XX oils will contain an appreciable amount of PAO but that's only to get the cold-flow performance.
That's interesting. I always thought that all Euro Formula oils were Group IV (PAO) or Group V (Ester).
ONLY GERMANY requires that an oil must be Full Groupp IV or V to be a full synthetic, the rest of Europe does not.
I've never ever heard of that being the case. Nor could I envision how it could ever happen.
First, yes the German OEMs are important but in terms of crankcase oil development, the Germans are a bit of a non-entity. Yes they have Fuchs (mainly OEM stuff), LiquiMoly & Pentosin (mainly Industrial & Driveline) but these firms are tiny minnows relative to Shell & BP/Castrol. The Germans don't have the market clout or development clout to impose such a rule.
Second, like any EU country, Germany is bound by EU law. If you, on a National basis want to mandate 'synthetic only equals PAO & Esters', then this would be construed as a restraint on trade and deemed illegal. The EU is very hot on this kind of thing.
Third, the two giants of the engine oil industry, Shell & Castrol run their respective businesses as coordinated 'Global' businesses. Yes there is a bit of National flavour but outside of German OEM specific programs, I can't see either company running say a market general 5W30 SN/A3/B4/MB/VW program with PAO purely for Fritz. The costs would be prohibitively high and the volumes far too small for this to be viable. They would get given Group III stuff just like everyone else and have to lump it!
As I said before 0W-XX oils (like Castrol 0W40) would have to be primarily PAO/ester based but that because it technically/viscometrically needs to be, not because of some arcane rule that all German synthetics MUST be so.
Couldn't edit my last post but I wanted to add the following...
Many moons ago I did a 0W30 program with a European oil company for a German OEM that I probably shouldn't mention. The oil targetted factory fill but it was also sold throughout Europe as a service fill. That primarily PAO oil contained 20 - 30% Group III, which was as much as I could squeeze in to keep costs down. There was never any question that this oil wasn't a 'full synthetic'.
Many moons ago I did a 0W30 program with a European oil company for a German OEM that I probably shouldn't mention. The oil targetted factory fill but it was also sold throughout Europe as a service fill. That primarily PAO oil contained 20 - 30% Group III, which was as much as I could squeeze in to keep costs down. There was never any question that this oil wasn't a 'full synthetic'.
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
Couldn't edit my last post but I wanted to add the following...
Many moons ago I did a 0W30 program with a European oil company for a German OEM that I probably shouldn't mention. The oil targetted factory fill but it was also sold throughout Europe as a service fill. That primarily PAO oil contained 20 - 30% Group III, which was as much as I could squeeze in to keep costs down. There was never any question that this oil wasn't a 'full synthetic'.
Good info. It appears GTL basestock is also a viable alternative to PAO for high VI oil grades like 0-30 and 0-40. Pennzoil and Mobil 1's 0W-40 oils are GTL base now. I wonder, cost-wise, how GTL compares to PAO.
Couldn't edit my last post but I wanted to add the following...
Many moons ago I did a 0W30 program with a European oil company for a German OEM that I probably shouldn't mention. The oil targetted factory fill but it was also sold throughout Europe as a service fill. That primarily PAO oil contained 20 - 30% Group III, which was as much as I could squeeze in to keep costs down. There was never any question that this oil wasn't a 'full synthetic'.
Good info. It appears GTL basestock is also a viable alternative to PAO for high VI oil grades like 0-30 and 0-40. Pennzoil and Mobil 1's 0W-40 oils are GTL base now. I wonder, cost-wise, how GTL compares to PAO.
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
A couple of additional comments..
Traditionally Euro oils have been far better on seal elastomer compatibility.
Euro oils tend to be based on low SSI VII polymers. As such they are far less prone to the kind of mechanical/thermal induced shear you will get in an engine. All things being equal, this makes the oil more expensive, necessitates a higher level of DI and a higher quality base oil mix for a given viscosity grade (particularly in semi-synthetics).
Euro oils tend to have lower Noack volatility. Some US PCMO's have Noacks that any sane person would say are far too high.
Euro oils all tend to be formulated for dual use (ie both gasoline & diesel engines) whereas US PCMOs traditionally only take into account performance on gasoline engines. As such Euro oils should give you a cleaner engine where crud is much better suspended in the oil. They also tend to last a bit longer.
One last thing. I'm not sure where the 'in Europe, synthetic means PAO or Ester' comments come from. Most full synthetic 5W30/5W40's in Europe are full Group III (possibly with a bit of PAO for cold-flow trimming purposes). Most 0W-XX oils will contain an appreciable amount of PAO but that's only to get the cold-flow performance.
Care to comment on the difference between MB 229.5 and MB 229.51? I believe MB 229.51 is approved for both gas and diesel and 229.5 is just for gas. However if you just have a gas engine, which one would you prefer? I think MB 229.5 is preferred as you can get it in 0w40, but most 229.51 tend to be 5w40.
A couple of additional comments..
Traditionally Euro oils have been far better on seal elastomer compatibility.
Euro oils tend to be based on low SSI VII polymers. As such they are far less prone to the kind of mechanical/thermal induced shear you will get in an engine. All things being equal, this makes the oil more expensive, necessitates a higher level of DI and a higher quality base oil mix for a given viscosity grade (particularly in semi-synthetics).
Euro oils tend to have lower Noack volatility. Some US PCMO's have Noacks that any sane person would say are far too high.
Euro oils all tend to be formulated for dual use (ie both gasoline & diesel engines) whereas US PCMOs traditionally only take into account performance on gasoline engines. As such Euro oils should give you a cleaner engine where crud is much better suspended in the oil. They also tend to last a bit longer.
One last thing. I'm not sure where the 'in Europe, synthetic means PAO or Ester' comments come from. Most full synthetic 5W30/5W40's in Europe are full Group III (possibly with a bit of PAO for cold-flow trimming purposes). Most 0W-XX oils will contain an appreciable amount of PAO but that's only to get the cold-flow performance.
Care to comment on the difference between MB 229.5 and MB 229.51? I believe MB 229.51 is approved for both gas and diesel and 229.5 is just for gas. However if you just have a gas engine, which one would you prefer? I think MB 229.5 is preferred as you can get it in 0w40, but most 229.51 tend to be 5w40.
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Originally Posted By: HerrStig
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Go by what specifications the oil actually does or does not carry. This is the only true measure of performance.
+1
+2
+3
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Go by what specifications the oil actually does or does not carry. This is the only true measure of performance.
+1
+2
+3
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