Euro oil spec thats better than dexos 1/r?

[ylk1]

Was able to find chemical limits of dexosR (2021 version) finally. Details in this thread: https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/gm-dexosr-dexosd-specifications.381726/

SAPS/Phosphorous/Sulphur and even Evaporative loss limits all are pretty loose compared to ACEA or other OEM specs.
Looks like they are easy with the specs, picky with their actual approvals.

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/gm-dexosr-dexosd-specifications.381726/post-7245002

 

[siriusc1024]

I have told you before to read things here before you come to discuss, because it is apparent that you discuss things as you find them on the internet at that moment.
EA888 is not sourced from VW. VW owns Porsche and Audi, and during the development of those and numerous other engines that are shared, all those companies have an input, etc., as to how to develop the engine. So, EA888 is a Porsche engine as it is a VW engine.
Now, onto this nonsense about 0W20. Engines can use any oil viscosity as long as it is higher than the lowest one recommended. In EA888 you can use Motul 300V 20W60 Le Mans for all intended purposes. If I could have a nickel for all the EA888 I have seen on track using Motul 300V 10W40, Mobil1 5W50 etc. I could buy a fancy dinner for all my family.
Also, kind of important, VW508.00/509.00 and C20 approvals are only current for the last 2-3 years. Before that, those SAME engines that have those same pressure regulators used VW504.00/507.00, which are HTHS 3.5cP or higher, almost W40 oils. And before that, which was 2019, they used VW502.00 mostly in 5W40 flavor! Take into consideration that on many markets VW still uses VW502.00 oils which are HTHS 3.5cP minimum, and come in XW30 and XW40 flavor because of their gasoline quality, or lack of.
And here is my point, we discussed this, EXACTLY this, numerous times, not only in this section, but in other sections too. And yet, here we are.

They aren't the SAME engines. The revisions 1-4 are substantially different.

508 in Gen 4. For example, Gen 4 cools the head separately, reducing oil cooling load.

508 in Gen3b "Budack". Has as smaller crank bearing diameter, different piston rings, utilizes the Miller cycle (ties in with fuel econ improvements of C20), revised piston crowns.

It was brought up by a few that Porsche does extensive testing. Even got a video of one of their engines riding a mechanical bull. Yet, that and their recommendations are now being discarded in lieu of anecdotal evidence by the people who want numbers and facts.

A40 isn't going to protect better where C20 is specified unless perhaps things get too hot, which the track will do. C20 has the right properties to maximize engine life for the design intentions of the engine.

Per the example, if you own a Macan 2.0T how often are you tracking it vs driving it on public roads? What do you gain with A40? It's not protecting better across the board. The oil isn't going to be rising to excessive temps 99% of the time. The oil supply will function as designed with the oil specified.

Porsche says use the C20 for, yes fuel economy, but there are other reasons. I'll go ahead and take their word for it above yours, no offense.

 

[siriusc1024]

dexos specs does LSPI testing on a separate GM engine. Still trying to find more details about the engine.
ACEA/API does LSPI, aged oil LSPI (with API SQ) testing under sequence ix using ford 2.0L ecoboost engine.
View attachment 279343

Was able to find chemical limits of dexosR (2021 version) finally. Details in this thread: https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/gm-dexosr-dexosd-specifications.381726/

SAPS/Phosphorous/Sulphur and even Evaporative loss limits all are pretty loose compared to ACEA or other OEM specs.
Looks like they are easy with the specs, picky with their actual approvals.

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/gm-dexosr-dexosd-specifications.381726/post-7245002

Why does GM test LSPI on a different engine? That they do this should indicate something. It's almost like they're targeting requirements of their engines instead of...all engines.

 

[edyvw]

They aren't the SAME engines. The revisions 1-4 are substantially different.

508 in Gen 4. For example, Gen 4 cools the head separately, reducing oil cooling load.

508 in Gen3b "Budack". Has as smaller crank bearing diameter, different piston rings, utilizes the Miller cycle (ties in with fuel econ improvements of C20), revised piston crowns.

It was brought up by a few that Porsche does extensive testing. Even got a video of one of their engines riding a mechanical bull. Yet, that and their recommendations are now being discarded in lieu of anecdotal evidence by the people who want numbers and facts.

A40 isn't going to protect better where C20 is specified unless perhaps things get too hot, which the track will do. C20 has the right properties to maximize engine life for the design intentions of the engine.

Per the example, if you own a Macan 2.0T how often are you tracking it vs driving it on public roads? What do you gain with A40? It's not protecting better across the board. The oil isn't going to be rising to excessive temps 99% of the time. The oil supply will function as designed with the oil specified.

Porsche says use the C20 for, yes fuel economy, but there are other reasons. I'll go ahead and take their word for it above yours, no offense.

you do know that Budack was running on VW502.00. That VW had Budack on VW502.00? Did you actually read what I wrote about running VW502.00 in Gen4 currently due to Low quality gasoline in many countries?
People are explaining to you last 8 pages this.
I was the one posting the video of Porsche sump tester. Before that testing was done using, well track. I know, I did it actually when I had that job.

 

[siriusc1024]

Actually it doesn’t.
It says specifically not to be used to compare to different specifications. What that means is that VW508.00/509.00 is different as it does NOT supersede VW502.00. You “could hypothetically “ compare VW502.00 with VW504.00/507.00 and VW511.00 and those two later ones supersede VW502.00!
However, it still cannot be fully compared as there are numerous other variables involved in approval process. Approval process does not only measure what Lubrizol shows.
On what he should use, I say VW504.00/507.00 not VW502.00 and definitely not VW508.00/509.00.

you do know that Budack was running on VW502.00. That VW had Budack on VW502.00? Did you actually read what I wrote about running VW502.00 in Gen4 currently due to Low quality gasoline in many countries?
People are explaining to you last 8 pages this.
I was the one posting the video of Porsche sump tester. Before that testing was done using, well track. I know, I did it actually when I had that job.

Sir.

There you are talking about not comparing specs, about the significance of approval processes, much as I have for the "last 8 pages." 502 is not 508. If it calls for 508 it calls for 508. Why deviate?

 

[edyvw]

Sir.

There you are talking about not comparing specs, about the significance of approval processes, much as I have for the "last 8 pages." 502 is not 508. If it calls for 508 it calls for 508. Why deviate?

As I mentioned to some people here, you can use extra virgin olive oil as far as I am concerned.
But THE ONLY reason why Porsche or anyone else is running 0W20 is CAFE and engines can run, as I said, 20W60 for all intended purposes.
VW is in business of making money. It is not going that good, but that is their core job. When one has to post mpg numbers it matters a lot on a vehicle like Tiguan or Atlas 1 or 2 mpg’s. Now if we are talking RS6, that is where VW doesn’t care, bcs. buyers of RS6 don’t care about consumption, therefore VW recommends VW511.00 specification which is basically C40.
Also, not to be lost, these vehicles will continue their life as used ones where people will use all kind of pils, from 0W20 to 15W40. And they will keep on running. Numerous EA888 are running as taxis in Europe. And choice of oil ain’t gonna be 0W20 when it reaches 500,000km and starts using oil, it will be some cheap 15W40.
So, again, numerous topics around this, with members arguing how oil pumps won’t like it etc. etc. There is a loooong discussion somewhere in personal vehicle section about how one MUST use only 0W16 in new Toyota vehicles bcs. pump is variable etc. etc. and yet, people running ESP 5W30 and engines did not explode.
It gets tiring from time to time having members revisiting this not to convince us, but to convince themselves.
But again, I just got back from Costco, olive oil is on $3 discount.

 

[chris719]

As I mentioned to some people here, you can use extra virgin olive oil as far as I am concerned.
But THE ONLY reason why Porsche or anyone else is running 0W20 is CAFE and engines can run, as I said, 20W60 for all intended purposes.
VW is in business of making money. It is not going that good, but that is their core job. When one has to post mpg numbers it matters a lot on a vehicle like Tiguan or Atlas 1 or 2 mpg’s. Now if we are talking RS6, that is where VW doesn’t care, bcs. buyers of RS6 don’t care about consumption, therefore VW recommends VW511.00 specification which is basically C40.
Also, not to be lost, these vehicles will continue their life as used ones where people will use all kind of pils, from 0W20 to 15W40. And they will keep on running. Numerous EA888 are running as taxis in Europe. And choice of oil ain’t gonna be 0W20 when it reaches 500,000km and starts using oil, it will be some cheap 15W40.
So, again, numerous topics around this, with members arguing how oil pumps won’t like it etc. etc. There is a loooong discussion somewhere in personal vehicle section about how one MUST use only 0W16 in new Toyota vehicles bcs. pump is variable etc. etc. and yet, people running ESP 5W30 and engines did not explode.
It gets tiring from time to time having members revisiting this not to convince us, but to convince themselves.
But again, I just got back from Costco, olive oil is on $3 discount.

Don’t bother lol, we clearly have a VW powertrain engineer here who works in AVL and GT-SUITE tools and knows all. Probably designed EA888 .

 

[siriusc1024]

As I mentioned to some people here, you can use extra virgin olive oil as far as I am concerned.
But THE ONLY reason why Porsche or anyone else is running 0W20 is CAFE and engines can run, as I said, 20W60 for all intended purposes.
VW is in business of making money. It is not going that good, but that is their core job. When one has to post mpg numbers it matters a lot on a vehicle like Tiguan or Atlas 1 or 2 mpg’s. Now if we are talking RS6, that is where VW doesn’t care, bcs. buyers of RS6 don’t care about consumption, therefore VW recommends VW511.00 specification which is basically C40.
Also, not to be lost, these vehicles will continue their life as used ones where people will use all kind of pils, from 0W20 to 15W40. And they will keep on running. Numerous EA888 are running as taxis in Europe. And choice of oil ain’t gonna be 0W20 when it reaches 500,000km and starts using oil, it will be some cheap 15W40.
So, again, numerous topics around this, with members arguing how oil pumps won’t like it etc. etc. There is a loooong discussion somewhere in personal vehicle section about how one MUST use only 0W16 in new Toyota vehicles bcs. pump is variable etc. etc. and yet, people running ESP 5W30 and engines did not explode.
It gets tiring from time to time having members revisiting this not to convince us, but to convince themselves.
But again, I just got back from Costco, olive oil is on $3 discount.

I have enjoyed the wit. Some replies from others I find lacking.

Here's the thing. The confusion, discussion points, claims, and correlated evidence have been a thing and will continue to be so. Sometimes it is tiring, and it doesn't help that there is often incomplete information and constant new developments to where what's being discussed remains either unresolved or becomes irrelevant.

So what simple me does is leave all that work to the people who test engines and oils as a design package. Simple me doesn't have the access to the test equipment, budgets, and manpower that oil suppliers and engine manufacturers do.

Given what goes into approval processes, I cannot reconcile that a company like Mobil offers both Dex and Euro certs with the claims that Euro is better period.

Sure, there's wiggle room sometimes, especially when you see an identical engine across the pond running a different viscosity. Make sure it's actually an identical engine, though. Another instance would be that you're operating the engine outside the design envelope, such as the track.

What I have advocated - run what the manufacturer recommends - isn't wrong. I expected resistance due to the way I first presented it, but didn't expect the notion to be rejected entirely by technically adept people.

Perhaps whether running the spec or not is to be unresolved like many other topics. That something so fundamental, because it relies on true understanding of tribology, should remain unaddressed doesn't bode well. It mirrors the fact that there are so many different specifications for "oil" itself, as well as the continually evolving standards.

 

[MParr]

I knew that we would finally get to precise reason that the OP is so in love with Dexos oils.
Here's his quote.

"Why does GM test LSPI on a different engine? That they do this should indicate something. It's almost like they're targeting requirements of their engines instead of...all engines"

Here's an old thread addressing this.

1

Thread 'LSPI and Euro engines, any low-Ca high-Mg C3 oils?'

Jun 7, 2018

Are European GDI and TGDI engines somehow immune from LSPI? Or do they have ways of addressing beyond changing the oil formulation? Just about every Euro spec’d oil I’ve seen (including, LL-01, LL-04, 229.5, 229.51, A40, C30, etc.) are high Ca (2,000-2,400 for A3/B4 and around 1,600 for C3) with essentially no Mg. Even the more recent specs don’t seem concerned with calcium doses. It makes me wonder how much changing the calcium content really can impact LSPI. Thoughts? Ever seen a low-Ca C3 oil?

• 1JZ_E46
• Replies: 33
• Forum: European and Import Motor Oils

Personally, I'm not concerned about LSPI at all.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

What I have advocated - run what the manufacturer recommends - isn't wrong. I expected resistance due to the way I first presented it, but didn't expect the notion to be rejected entirely by technically adept people.

Vehicle manufacturers care about one thing: getting a vehicle through the warranty period with a minimum of warrantable repairs, NOT making the vehicle last as long as possible. It’s that simple, because if they made it last, they reduce potential future sales. GM has realized that, testing or no testing, their engineers and/or bean counters flew too close to the sun and they are getting burned precisely because 0w20 dexos1 did not protect the engine under normal operating conditions as they promised.

Just because you can’t or don’t want to grasp certain realities doesn’t give any validity to your buckshot arguments and you jackrabbiting between unrelated examples, rather than admitting the obvious defeat of your premise that “Manufacturer knows best”.

 

[Patman]

Vehicle manufacturers care about one thing: getting a vehicle through the warranty period with a minimum of warrantable repairs, NOT making the vehicle last as long as possible. It’s that simple, because if they made it last, they reduce potential future sales. GM has realized that, testing or no testing, their engineers and/or bean counters flew too close to the sun and they are getting burned precisely because 0w20 dexos1 did not protect the engine under normal operating conditions as they promised.

Just because you can’t or don’t want to grasp certain realities doesn’t give any validity to your buckshot arguments and you jackrabbiting between unrelated examples, rather than admitting the obvious defeat of your premise that “Manufacturer knows best”.

I don’t think that people would go back to the same manufacturer again if they had an engine failure shortly after the warranty expired. It doesn’t instill confidence in the brand. For that reason I do think that manufacturers strive for long lasting reliable cars. Toyota gets repeat sales for that very reason.

 

[OVERKILL]

No, engines aren't engines. Oil isn't oil.

You are right, the lighter oils like 0w-20, specifically resource conserving, do improve fuel economy. Anything else maybe? What other functions of oil are there?

Porsche sourced the 2.0T engine in the Macan from VW - EA888. Like many TDI engines, it has oil squirters to cool the pistons. See below (Audi uses it, too).
View attachment 279323

If a heavier oil, such as an A40 spec 0w-40 or 5w-40, is used that could be problematic. The oil pump has a pressure regulator. If pressure rises too high then the bypass spring opens to hold set pressure. There will be a higher volume of oil pumped to the system for the lower viscosity oil for the same pressure. Therefore, in this instance, C20 protects this engine better than A40 by providing the specified volume of oil for adequate cooling..

A40 might be a stricter spec theoretically, but practically the level of actual protection varies with application.

Does that not make sense? Design considerations. Oil and the engine tested as a unit. Sure, there may be engines that use piston squirters and call for A40. This oil spec for this oil system. Porsche tests extensively, remember?

So, C20 or A40 in this engine?

You've addressed none of my points.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

I don’t think that people would go back to the same manufacturer again if they had an engine failure shortly after the warranty expired. It doesn’t instill confidence in the brand. For that reason I do think that manufacturers strive for long lasting reliable cars. Toyota gets repeat sales for that very reason.

I’m not saying they design for failure immediately after warranty, but they would lose money vs the competition if they designed their vehicles to absolutely last 300k rather than being a gamble to make it to 125k.

 

[OilUzer]

This is only true at the top end of the spectrum. You can pour Porsche C40 ESP X4 0W-40 into almost any car and it will give fantastic results, even cars that call for Dexos 1 or some of the lesser Ford / Stellantis specs. Conversely, you cannot pour that Dexos 1 or Ford oil into a Porsche 911 and expect things to turn out well.

I try to buy oil a notch or two above my OM specifications. Not always but in general depending on which car ... A notch or two above for me is any Euro oil on sale.

I wonder if grandma drove a Porsche, BMW or an Audi, if you could go down a notch or two from the specified very "top end" oil and get away with it with no issues. Don't we at some point get into the overkill territory for the given application? Hello BITOG!

I know few people and co-workers with BMW, Audi, Benz, etc. that rarely go over 50% max RPM.

Aren't most Euro sports car oil specs partly based on expectation of fast and furious driving with long OCIs?

 

[OVERKILL]

Do you think that's the only engine with piston squirters? My BMW S54 runs 10W-60 and people have run as thin as 0W-40 in them and there is no problem with piston squirters or even the extremely overcomplicated high pressure VVT. There is no way that C20 protects better. Period. C20 is for grocery getters sold in volume to bring up CAFE so the "real" Porsches can use their 3.8 HTHS oil.

The Ford Coyote engine spec'd both 5W-20 and 5W-50 solely depending on whether the vehicle had the "track pack" option, which included an oil cooler and the elimination or modification (we've never got absolute confirmation on that) of the oil temp neutering function. This engine of course has piston squirters.

The BMW S62 spec'd both LL-01 and TWS 10W-60 simultaneously depending on what market it was sold into. Canadian and Euro cars, post 03/00 (updated rings) were spec'd for LL-01, while US market cars continued to spec TWS 10W-60. This engine of course also has piston squirters.

 

[edyvw]

I have enjoyed the wit. Some replies from others I find lacking.

Here's the thing. The confusion, discussion points, claims, and correlated evidence have been a thing and will continue to be so. Sometimes it is tiring, and it doesn't help that there is often incomplete information and constant new developments to where what's being discussed remains either unresolved or becomes irrelevant.

So what simple me does is leave all that work to the people who test engines and oils as a design package. Simple me doesn't have the access to the test equipment, budgets, and manpower that oil suppliers and engine manufacturers do.

Given what goes into approval processes, I cannot reconcile that a company like Mobil offers both Dex and Euro certs with the claims that Euro is better period.

Sure, there's wiggle room sometimes, especially when you see an identical engine across the pond running a different viscosity. Make sure it's actually an identical engine, though. Another instance would be that you're operating the engine outside the design envelope, such as the track.

What I have advocated - run what the manufacturer recommends - isn't wrong. I expected resistance due to the way I first presented it, but didn't expect the notion to be rejected entirely by technically adept people.

Perhaps whether running the spec or not is to be unresolved like many other topics. That something so fundamental, because it relies on true understanding of tribology, should remain unaddressed doesn't bode well. It mirrors the fact that there are so many different specifications for "oil" itself, as well as the continually evolving standards.

Ah yes, VW, the company that makes different engines for small markets where they can sell 100 GTI’s, maybe.

 

[edyvw]

I try to buy oil a notch or two above my OM specifications. Not always but in general depending on which car ... A notch or two above for me is any Euro oil on sale.

I wonder if grandma drove a Porsche, BMW or an Audi, if you could go down a notch or two from the specified very "top end" oil and get away with it with no issues. Don't we at some point get into the overkill territory for the given application? Hello BITOG!

I know few people and co-workers with BMW, Audi, Benz, etc. that rarely go over 50% max RPM.

Aren't most Euro sports car oil specs partly based on expectation of fast and furious driving with long OCIs?

It is more complicated. We discussed this a lot. The reason for approvals is that API didn’t want to deliver specifications in the early 1990’s that would be sufficient for dramatic downsizing trend in Europe, especially when it comes to 4cyl turbo diesels. Also, it is much easier to tell people which oil to use if they just look for approved oil and not guess.
There are advantages to both thin and thicker oils. The rule is: “as thin as possible as thick as necessary.” Thinner oils like 0W20 are good for cold environments, very short trips etc. The issue here is finding balance. But what companies do is not recommending oil for specific driver, but for average driver. Is 0W20 with all advances going to be sufficient for average suburban driver? Perhaps. Is it going to be sufficient for me who drive above 5,000rpms as soon as oil is up in temperature? Maybe not. But I am not targeted audience as drivers like me will run things differently. Enthusiasts are not goal here. But that is why on many markets you have optional grades or approvals. In the US, MB until recently was specifically telling customers in manual which approval is for maximum fuel efficiency (MB229.71) and which one is for maximum wear protection (MB229.51/52). But EPA went after them bcs. they thought (well, rightly so) that MB is trying to circumvent EPA.
But make no mistake, fuel efficiency is the goal. That is why Toyota recommends 0W8 oils. However, if 0W8 oils were protecting same as 0W20, they would be recommended in Toyota turbo engines, but they are not.
The question is not whether engine can safely operate on 0W40. But whether it can safely operate on 0W20 or in Toyota’s case, 0W8 (yuck).

 

[4WD]

I don’t think that people would go back to the same manufacturer again if they had an engine failure shortly after the warranty expired. It doesn’t instill confidence in the brand. For that reason I do think that manufacturers strive for long lasting reliable cars. Toyota gets repeat sales for that very reason.

Folks can google one of the most boring and hard worked vehicles out there - a 2500 GM van and/or check the miles on their favorite used car site ... (6.0L without AFM)

 

[siriusc1024]

I knew that we would finally get to precise reason that the OP is so in love with Dexos oils.
Here's his quote.

"Why does GM test LSPI on a different engine? That they do this should indicate something. It's almost like they're targeting requirements of their engines instead of...all engines"

Here's an old thread addressing this.

1

Thread 'LSPI and Euro engines, any low-Ca high-Mg C3 oils?'

Jun 7, 2018

Are European GDI and TGDI engines somehow immune from LSPI? Or do they have ways of addressing beyond changing the oil formulation? Just about every Euro spec’d oil I’ve seen (including, LL-01, LL-04, 229.5, 229.51, A40, C30, etc.) are high Ca (2,000-2,400 for A3/B4 and around 1,600 for C3) with essentially no Mg. Even the more recent specs don’t seem concerned with calcium doses. It makes me wonder how much changing the calcium content really can impact LSPI. Thoughts? Ever seen a low-Ca C3 oil?

• 1JZ_E46
• Replies: 33
• Forum: European and Import Motor Oils

Personally, I'm not concerned about LSPI at all.

I don't have a particular affinity for dexos or a hatred for Euro. I don't like crossing the streams with unverifiable claims.

Vehicle manufacturers care about one thing: getting a vehicle through the warranty period with a minimum of warrantable repairs, NOT making the vehicle last as long as possible. It’s that simple, because if they made it last, they reduce potential future sales. GM has realized that, testing or no testing, their engineers and/or bean counters flew too close to the sun and they are getting burned precisely because 0w20 dexos1 did not protect the engine under normal operating conditions as they promised.

Just because you can’t or don’t want to grasp certain realities doesn’t give any validity to your buckshot arguments and you jackrabbiting between unrelated examples, rather than admitting the obvious defeat of your premise that “Manufacturer knows best”.

There it is. The cheat code. You're going to exceed warranty period with Euro oil. You could probably do that with Rotella T4 in a well-built engine.

Why are people clutching their pearls with that part in bold? Those 6.2's fail because 0w-20 didn't provide adequate oil pressure. That's the only reason for a change in viscosity. Viscosity doesn't necessarily mean protection. It only does when there's too much heat or clearances.

You've addressed none of my points.

Engines aren't engines. Oils aren't oils. Spec matters.

 

[siriusc1024]

I don’t think that people would go back to the same manufacturer again if they had an engine failure shortly after the warranty expired. It doesn’t instill confidence in the brand. For that reason I do think that manufacturers strive for long lasting reliable cars. Toyota gets repeat sales for that very reason.

Look at Patman making sense.