Euro oil spec thats better than dexos 1/r?
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You’re trying to have a serious conversation with someone who clearly isn’t sirius about understanding the topic. My money is that it’s really George Visan….I mean, you seem pretty willing to step away from the topic and try and go after my credibility in the other thread
No, we don't do the same thing. I spend considerable time researching something before I start voicing my opinions on it, let alone authoritatively.
I consider a concert of actual engine tests more definitive than the base API/ILSAC tests. The crux of the issue is that you spent some time constructing a strawman about how dexos was a more robust spec for GM engines, due to it's association WITH those GM engines, than the Euro approvals. This was of course knocked down by the same oil being discussed in your examples, getting the highest possible dexos approval basically overnight, meaning its performance exceeds the requirements of the dexos approvals being discussed.
You are aware that ESP Formula 0W-40 IS a Euro oil, right?
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I had a Sirius conversation and cut my monthly rate a bunch!
You can lead a horse to water.I mean, you seem pretty willing to step away from the topic and try and go after my credibility in the other thread
No, we don't do the same thing. I spend considerable time researching something before I start voicing my opinions on it, let alone authoritatively.
I consider a concert of actual engine tests more definitive than the base API/ILSAC tests. The crux of the issue is that you spent some time constructing a strawman about how dexos was a more robust spec for GM engines, due to it's association WITH those GM engines, than the Euro approvals. This was of course knocked down by the same oil being discussed in your examples, getting the highest possible dexos approval basically overnight, meaning its performance exceeds the requirements of the dexos approvals being discussed.
You are aware that ESP Formula 0W-40 IS a Euro oil, right?
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I mean, you seem pretty willing to step away from the topic and try and go after my credibility in the other thread
No, we don't do the same thing. I spend considerable time researching something before I start voicing my opinions on it, let alone authoritatively.
I consider a concert of actual engine tests more definitive than the base API/ILSAC tests. The crux of the issue is that you spent some time constructing a strawman about how dexos was a more robust spec for GM engines, due to it's association WITH those GM engines, than the Euro approvals. This was of course knocked down by the same oil being discussed in your examples, getting the highest possible dexos approval basically overnight, meaning its performance exceeds the requirements of the dexos approvals being discussed.
You are aware that ESP Formula 0W-40 IS a Euro oil, right?
0w-40 FS getting approval was damage control on GM's part. That issue is about oil viscosity not Euro approval. There are all kinds of threads on the subject. Approving it was more about supply shortages. Also, the real problem is a quality control issue.
One of the things that facilitated approval to Dexos R was that GM has already evaluated the oil. It's a known quantity to them. It didn't make the cut before.
ESP Formula 0w-40 has Dex approval. Is it 100% the same as the Euro blend for sure? Product data indicates otherwise, but maybe it is. Point is it's been evaluated to meet GM's requirements.
So is that a yes on the ESP?
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So your position on FS being approved for dexos R is that it's not REALLY approved for dexos R? So the dexos OEM approval is simultaneously a critical property that requires extensive testing in order to obtain, while also a simple label that can be applied to products that don't meet those performance criteria at GM's discretion? What is this, Schrodinger's approval?
Is this a real question? I don't think you really want an answer here.
Dexos R is just Dexos2 renamed. The Porsche oil ESP X3/X4 has met Dexos2/R with no changes from day 1. The reason FS was not Dexos2 or Dexos R is because FS is ACEA A3/B4 based and Dexos2/R started out as a mid-SAPS ACEA C3 based standard. Dexos2 originally targeted diesel vehicles (Opel) as well. The GM ESP (ESP Formula -> Supercar) oil IS basically a Euro oil since it is based on ACEA C3. The only reason FS was not licensed before is the same reason that FS carries BMW LL-01 and not LL-04. It is likely it was simply a desire to use the lower SAPS specification in case they ever had vehicles with GPF.
I understand what you are getting at but you have a very flawed and incomplete understanding you are basing this all on. At the end of the day, Dexos2 became Dexos R and Dexos2 is an OEM modification of the ACEA C3 Euro spec. So, GM has already answered your question for you. Euro oils were better so they took their Euro oil spec targeting Opel/EU market vehicles and specified it for Camaro and Corvette. Then, they renamed it Dexos R to avoid confusion.
Addressing your point on the FS again, there is insufficient evidence to say that the FS 0W-40 is worse than the ESP 0W-40 of any variety in terms of protection. It passes the same tests with the same wear limits as the ESP oils. The difference between Porsche A40 and C40 or BMW LL-01 and LL-04 are in the SAPS levels, not the performance requirements as far as I know. If GM had a full SAPS "Euro" spec then FS would have had it from the beginning, but they did not, necessitating them to license a FS oil as Dexos R for whatever actual reason.
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So you're saying ESP didn't make the cut before, but now that GM has quality control issues, it does? Maybe GM just gave up? "Ah - good enough. We're going electric so who cares anyway?"
I'm confused. And to think, I was going to defend some of your non-verifiable and judgement based data. I too prefer oils that quiet an engine. Its totally subjective and non-repeatable, but its my preference too. Oil pressure, temps, iron fuzz on magnet - also kind of subjective without numbers (oil pressure increase in psi, temp in degrees, grams of iron filings, etc). Could be a wild array of other circumstances that lead to those conclusions.
Will using a spec'ed oil at factory OCI's result in good performance and longevity? Nearly all of the time. IS there better out there?
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My position on the subject of 0w-40 FS is that it was approved as an emergency measure. GM has evaluated that formula. It wasn't approved before for their reasons. Logically, it was similar enough, but it was missing a couple properties that GM required. GM greenlighted it because the 0w-40 oils aren't as common, and there would be a supply shortage that further inconvenienced GM customers.
Yes on the ESP?
Take a look at X4 ESP 0w40. It has all the C3 approvals (C40, 225.51/52, 511) but with A40!
In 2022 they renamed ESP Formula 0w40 to Supercar. The old Corvette guys couldn’t grasp a euro oil safe for diesel particulate filters in their Corvette’s. It made them feel better.
The Supercar has been tested in the HPL lab and confirmed as the previous gtl/pao/ester formula FS 0w40(pre SP) base oil. It’s very good oil to say the least.
The Supercar has been tested in the HPL lab and confirmed as the previous gtl/pao/ester formula FS 0w40(pre SP) base oil. It’s very good oil to say the least.
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Alright, skip ahead because the obvious answer is YES.
GM vehicle. Which do you choose?
HPL Euro 5w-30
https://www.hplubricants.com/hp-synthetic-motor-oil-2-2/
or
HPL PCMO 5w-30
https://www.hplubricants.com/hp-synthetic-motor-oil-4-2-2/
Euro. But I am an ESP X3/X4 fan if you want to stay M1. It's a tad bit better than GM Supercar version in HTHS (3.8) and viscosity retention it seems.
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Why would you choose the HPL Euro over their dexos?
Fair warning. Before you wander down the HPL road you may want to research before posting. Lots of top dressing of add packs and creativity going on there. Plus some oils are named after members here….
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I can do the same for Mobil, Castrol, Pennzoil, Valvoline. When reputable companies offer both Euro and Dex, why not choose the Dex for a GM application?
Maybe it's not coming across clearly because there are some pretty terrible Dex approved oils. What I'm saying is why not use what you know to select the best oil within the specifications?
Euro FS 0w-40 was a good example. GM has known about it. It didn't meet their approvals prior to the 0w-20 to 0w-40 in the 6.2 fiasco. There's something about it that didn't meet targets. How can you or I run the extensive testing that these multi-billion dollar multi-nationals do? What is the basis for contradiction?
Porsche? Even they distinguish between Euro oils. A40 is not C20. The blanket statement of Euro is better misses the mark.
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So, that's a long-winded way of saying "yes, I think it doesn't really meet the requirements"? So it is in your opinion that GM has compromised their integrity with the fast-tracked designation of oils other than Supercar as dexosR?
What would you speculate those "properties" to be?
My take: It wasn't approved before because of the genesis of dexosR, which @chris719 already got into. Dexos2 originally appeared on mid/low-SAPS oils (FS is Full-SAPS), which was ESP X3 0W-40, a Euro oil.
They later spun this off as a separate product with the introduction of dexosR, and it became the "Supercar" oil, with that product being the only one that carried the dexosR approval. That became a problem when Supercar, not widely available, was suddenly called on for the 6.2L issue:
When the spin-off of ESP X3->dexosR occurred, Mobil reintroducing an ESP 0W-40 as ESP X4, which doesn't carry dexos2.
ESP is also quite common. Both it, and FS, were added to dexosR.
I'm not sure what you are asking
ESP IS a Euro oil, and was long before dexos was added to it, as has been already covered.I'm afraid you are missing the mark completely. Dexos2 became DexosR. Dexos2 is a Euro spec (C3 based), thus GM's best spec is Euro based. The only reason FS was not licensed is probably because it is full SAPS (not a bad thing for cars without GPF), the same reason BMW does not license it for new standards.
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So, that's a long-winded way of saying "yes, I think it doesn't really meet the requirements"? So it is in your opinion that GM has compromised their integrity with the fast-tracked designation of oils other than Supercar as dexosR?
What would you speculate those "properties" to be?
My take: It wasn't approved before because of the genesis of dexosR, which @chris719 already got into. Dexos2 originally appeared on mid/low-SAPS oils (FS is Full-SAPS), which was ESP X3 0W-40, a Euro oil.
They later spun this off as a separate product with the introduction of dexosR, which became the "Supercar" oil, with that product being the only one that carried the dexosR approval. That became a problem when Supercar, not widely available, was suddenly called on for the 6.2L issue:
View attachment 279208
When the spin-off of ESP X3->dexosR occurred, Mobil reintroducing an ESP 0W-40 as ESP X4, which doesn't carry dexos2.
ESP is also quite common. Both it, and FS, were added to dexosR.
I'm not sure what you are asking
So when you look at that GM bulletin you don't see the obvious problem? It's model year specific. It's not engine-specific. GM already lost integrity with their quality control.
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