Agreed. Most people (eg. families) in Germany drive about 70 mph in the right 2 lanes. It's just the odd-ball $100k+ M-B S class or odd-ball Porsche that rips by at 100+ mph. Odd-ball meaning...in a blue moon...especially in the case of the Porsche. There are more of these found on the streets of So.Cal. than seen in one day of driving/sightseeing in Germany.
That said, a lot of higher end German cars (eg. my BMW) have oil, tranny and rear diff. coolers that are omitted in the U.S. market. Also due to high speed driving...and still use the viscosities recommended above. Imagine using a 5-20 w/o the cooler and driving in AZ's 100+ F at 100mph?
euro honda oil viscosities
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you know, not everyone in germany or europe drives on the autobahn or over 100kph.
and might i point out that the viscosity recomendation is based on outside tempature, and NOT anything to do with estimated speed.
if honda was concerned about using a praticular voscority for a given speed range, they would list the viscosity of the various oils on a chart related to driving speed, not ambient tempature!
quote:1) Europeans and Japanese do not routinely drive 100+ miles per hour. Period. Their driving habits are actually pretty close to ours in America. In some places, at least in my experience, they drive on average much slower than we do on our highways. 2) Even if European vehicles see speeds like these, how often? All the time? Most of the time? No. What about the vast majority of the time when they're seeing far lower speeds, and hence lower, more "American-driving-habit-like" oil temps? They're still running much thicker oils -- much thicker recommended oils -- than we are. Are their bearings somehow more or less forgiving than ours when running at the same speeds? I'm afraid the conspiracy still stands. I ask again, what happens on the way across the ocean? Do engine tolerances mysteriously shrink because of the ocean air? I have no problem with people choosing to run thinner oils in their engines, but I can assure you that manufacturers don't recommend much thicker oils across the pond in identical engines because of anything resembling concern about engine wear.
If you are driving on the Autobahn @ 140 mph, it requires approx four times the Hp that it does at 70 mph. This results in much higher engine loads, and you can easily see sustained oil temps of 250F-270F. This is particularly true with an engine that's designed/geared like this Honda - it's practically a motorcycle engine. An SAE 20w-50 oil running @ 250F will have approx the same bearing viscosity as a 5w-30 or 10w-30; running @ 210F. A 20w-50 running @ 270F will have the same bearing viscosity as a 5w-20; running @ 210F! There's no conspiracy here ...it's simple High School Physics.[/QB]
quote:A reputable european car mechanic placed 20W-50 syn blend into my Civic last summer at an oil change. The car ran fine and I did not notice a significant mileage loss or any other issues.
Originally posted by seotaji:quote:I have a friend who runs 20w50 in a tercel and it runs great. Peppy and no noticeable loss in power.
Originally posted by quadrun1: 20W-50 in a Civic is just plain wrong!
FWIW, my experience driving, and being driven, in Germany, is that most traffic was steady at about 85mph, with a significant amount (presumably business users) at 100+. I stayed with the herd, in lanes 1 and 2, to reduce chances of being demolished from the rear. Dare say it depends on the luck of the draw and time of day, what the pace is. In the 70's being driven in diesel MB, it was ALWAYS about 110mph on autobahns where possible. Even in UK speeds are commonplace between 80 - 95. Risky over 100 as the licence can be forfeited. Other than the London orbital (M25) where mandatory limits (from usual 70 down to 50) are set depending on flow, on more open Mways, at 70, you're in lane 1 with the trucks! Unless you're a habitual lane blocker, of which there are many ![[Mad]](images/icons/mad.gif)
I have a friend who runs 20w50 in a tercel and it runs great. Peppy and no noticeable loss in power.
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Put a lighter weight oil and you WILL feel the difference and get improved mpg. 50W in a Tercel or Civic? ![[Duh!]](/forums/graemlins/pat.gif)
I've had shop manuals for a 1992 Accord, 1999 Civic SiR, and 2002 Civic SiR and I can tell you major engine clearances have not changed on any of these vehicles between 1992 and 2002. All major clearances were basically the same between all engines and years for these Hondas. Hondas have always had relatively tight engine clearances, so they have not gotten any tighter. I think its clearly understood that 5w-20 is used for fuel economy purposes in NA, and the reasoning behind the thicker weights for autobahn speeds in Europe also makes sense.
quote:The point is, are these cars always driven on the highway? Are they driven on the highway most of the time? My experience in Europe says no. Further, my experience in Europe is not that cars routinely run at that pace, especially in Britain. But that may depend on a lot of things I suppose. The point is, what about the times -- most of the time, I'd say -- when those vehicles aren't running 100+ MPH on an open expressway? How in the world can those poor oil pumps, those poor oil passages, those poor, tight engine clearances manage that ultra-thick oil when running around town? 5w-20 is about CAFE and mileage, and that's about it.
Originally posted by nortones2: FWIW, my experience driving, and being driven, in Germany, is that most traffic was steady at about 85mph, with a significant amount (presumably business users) at 100+. I stayed with the herd, in lanes 1 and 2, to reduce chances of being demolished from the rear. Dare say it depends on the luck of the draw and time of day, what the pace is. In the 70's being driven in diesel MB, it was ALWAYS about 110mph on autobahns where possible. Even in UK speeds are commonplace between 80 - 95. Risky over 100 as the licence can be forfeited. Other than the London orbital (M25) where mandatory limits (from usual 70 down to 50) are set depending on flow, on more open Mways, at 70, you're in lane 1 with the trucks! Unless you're a habitual lane blocker, of which there are many
First time posting, but, ever think this is the way that the car companies here in the US appease the EPA and their fuel standards? If your engine requires more torque to idle, your hydrocarbons instantly go up due to lean load idling..
quote:The concept of light oils to meet CAFE standards is regularly discussed on the board. The idea of increased hydrocarbons from lean load idling is new and very interesting. You may well be on to something here that is worth looking into. Cary
Originally posted by Durrr: First time posting, but, ever think this is the way that the car companies here in the US appease the EPA and their fuel standards? If your engine requires more torque to idle, your hydrocarbons instantly go up due to lean load idling..
quote:This less of a reply to what you said Tooslick, but rather an alarming discovery. I never posted that quote. Somebody else did. And somehow it came out on this thread as me. Mods? BTW Tooslick, not only am I a ME, I also have 5w-20 in my truck and just became a Amsoil dealer. Kinda funny when you think about it.
Originally posted by TooSlick: CrashZ, Is it safe to assume you're not a Mech Eng or Aero Eng?Kinetic Energy = 1/2 (mass)(velocity)(velocity) If you are driving on the Autobahn @ 140 mph, it requires approx four times the Hp that it does at 70 mph. This results in much higher engine loads, and you can easily see sustained oil temps of 250F-270F. This is particularly true with an engine that's designed/geared like this Honda - it's practically a motorcycle engine. An SAE 20w-50 oil running @ 250F will have approx the same bearing viscosity as a 5w-30 or 10w-30; running @ 210F. A 20w-50 running @ 270F will have the same bearing viscosity as a 5w-20; running @ 210F! There's no conspiracy here ...it's simple High School Physics.
![[Cheers!]](/forums/graemlins/cheers.gif)
BP's U.K. web site recommends their 0W-40 oil for a Honda Accord 3.0L V-6. Same for the NSX.
http://www.bplubricants.co.uk/
Ken
quote:I'm not quite sure I understand what you mean by "lean load idling". My experience with that term is when it's associated with diesel engines. If you simply mean the additional load put on a engine due to minutely thicker oil, I believe tests in a scientific setting are showing about a .1 MPG improvement in fuel economy with these "new" oils. How much more emissions could be contributed due to this additional load? .5%?
Originally posted by Durrr: First time posting, but, ever think this is the way that the car companies here in the US appease the EPA and their fuel standards? If your engine requires more torque to idle, your hydrocarbons instantly go up due to lean load idling..
quote:I'm not so sure using a 50w is a big deal as we make it out to be on this board. Check out this UOA of M1 15w-50 in a Civic
Originally posted by tenderloin: Put a lighter weight oil and you WILL feel the difference and get improved mpg. 50W in a Tercel or Civic?
quote:well, if a car is idling, its using a higher Air to fuel ratio by default, and that, as a result results in more carbon due to the higher oxygen content of the combustion. If you put a load onto the engine it wasnt designed for at that RPM, then it adds a bit more air, and the same amount of fuel, resulting in even more undesirable emissions. Light oils allow it to idle w/ considerably less load.
Originally posted by 427Z06:quote:I'm not quite sure I understand what you mean by "lean load idling". My experience with that term is when it's associated with diesel engines. If you simply mean the additional load put on a engine due to minutely thicker oil, I believe tests in a scientific setting are showing about a .1 MPG improvement in fuel economy with these "new" oils. How much more emissions could be contributed due to this additional load? .5%?
Originally posted by Durrr: First time posting, but, ever think this is the way that the car companies here in the US appease the EPA and their fuel standards? If your engine requires more torque to idle, your hydrocarbons instantly go up due to lean load idling..
quote:I don't think this is true of modern closed loop fuel injection systems. In a closed loop system the reading from the exhaust oxygen sensor is constantly monitored and used to adjust the mixture in order to achieve as close to a stoichiometric mixture (neither lean nor rich, but just right). Catalytic convertors pretty much need the engine to be running at stoichiometric conditions in order to do their job. I don't believe that slightly higher internal friction loads from thicker oils are going to make a difference in idle exhaust emissions due to "lean loading". John
If your engine requires more torque to idle, your hydrocarbons instantly go up due to lean load idling..
quote:You are WAY off base here. With modern fuel injection systems and O2 sensors the fuel/air ratio remains virtually constant from idle to WOT and full load. As was pointed out, the scenario you've described pertains to diesels, which run the "leanest" at idle with the fuel/air ratio only approaching the level typical in a gas engine when the diesel is operating at full power and full load. Since a diesel is un-throttled, the engine speed is governed by the fuel/air ratio, with the air intake volume a virtual constant (governed only by engine speed).
Originally posted by Durrr: well, if a car is idling, its using a higher Air to fuel ratio by default, and that, as a result results in more carbon due to the higher oxygen content of the combustion. If you put a load onto the engine it wasnt designed for at that RPM, then it adds a bit more air, and the same amount of fuel, resulting in even more undesirable emissions. Light oils allow it to idle w/ considerably less load.
this isnt true, i have dyno sheets where my car ran 16:1 at idle and at redline went all the way down to 11:1. They dont keep a constant air/fuel mixture at all. It varies back and forth as much as a point in either direction every few seconds. Go get an air/fuel meter and watch it bob back and forth.
quote:I said "virtually constant." Of course an engine is going to run its richest at WOT under a full load. A diesel, on the other hand, will run from 200:1 at idle to 10:1 at full power under load. Big difference.
Originally posted by Durrr: this isnt true, i have dyno sheets where my car ran 16:1 at idle and at redline went all the way down to 11:1. They dont keep a constant air/fuel mixture at all. It varies back and forth as much as a point in either direction every few seconds. Go get an air/fuel meter and watch it bob back and forth.
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