EPA paper on 5w-20's

[Motorbike]

Hey help me out here . Some of you members thats been here since the inception probably remember an EPA paper posted .

Here where memory fails so hang with me .

Since that paper said the exact amounts of 5w-20 sold was to be kept by the makers of the oils and turned in to tell the EPA in an effort to tell how many owners were actually using the oil in some way making for a proposed 3-4 year total evaluation of sorts " is how I took it " and depending on this or that at the end of said evaluation the EPA would either back off or stick with the continued use of 5w-20's .

That paragraph above lead me to believe the end users were actually testing in the field for all and that we are guinie pigs

Do I have this wrong in how I percieved this paper ?

The reason I ask is I spoke with a chemist the other day and he said they WILL NOT make a 5w-20 yet and maybe some action might be taken on the auto makers demanding such oils for waranty purposes then went on to speak of two separate cases .

Help me to understand if or not 5w-20's are here to stay .

 

[jason07-1zzfe]

I took it to mean they had to make sure the oils are available and do their best to ensure the customer uses them, otherwise they cannot use that oil in their CAFE testing. Same thing happened with 5w30.

There is no reason that 5w20 isn't hear to stay.

 

[C4Dave]

As I recall, Ford (and Honda) presented EPA with some data that showed a fuel savings using 5w20 oils. EPA said they would retroactively apply fuel economy credits, but that the oils had to be readily available and actually used by the general public. That's why the Motorcraft semi-synthetic oil was so cheap at Wal-Mart.

EPA also wanted Ford to track how much oil they use to confirm their projections. I suspect if Ford doesn't put enough 5w20 is the affected vehicles, then EPA would withdraw their fuel economy credits. But GM and DCM are now jumping on the 5w20 bandwagon, so it will be here to stay.

 

[Tones]

This one?

or maybe this one?

[ September 22, 2004, 06:23 PM: Message edited by: Tones ]

 

[Motorbike]

Yep , in the first PDF the language keeps refering to the test vehicles . They had spoke of preproduction however later they speak of dealer oil , Quick lubes but this :

""b. Acquire from oil manufacturers and provide to EPA the fuel efficiency data of their 5W20
and the highest-selling oils identified in a. above, relative to the reference oil as specified
in ASTM Sequence VI-B (or its replacement procedure). This information may be collected
and reported to EPA in conjunction with other vehicle manufacturers; and
c. Acquire and provide to EPA data on the retail prices of 5W20 and the highest selling oils
identified in a. above. Prices of non-synthetic, partial synthetic and synthetic oils are to be
included. This information may be collected and reported to EPA in conjunction with other
vehicle manufacturers.
This information will be used by EPA to determine whether approval of the use of 5W20 engine oil
should be extended beyond the 2003 model year.
If you have any questions, please contact Mr. Eldert Bontekoe at (734) 214-4442."""
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The last sentance is what gets me thinking .

This information will be used by EPA to determine whether approval of the use of 5W20 engine oil should be extended beyond the 2003 model year .


Was 2003 and earlier a field test using owners vehicles ?

 

[2004 F150 4x4]

EXCELLENT topic MotorBike. Thanks. Every time I get my mind made of one way (5w-20) or the other (5w30) on what oil to run in my new truck I see something like this and I start waffling again. There have been about an equal number of argurements made in both camps with the 5w-20 camp having a slight edge(you can't argue with some of those uoa') and the 5/10-30 camp always throwing up the what if scenrios(what is my water pump fails using such thin oil). The search goes on. Another thought I just had.... I would'nt think Pennzoil would extend their 250k/10yr warranty if motors were blowing up all over the place running 5w-20. My .02
Take Care Guys.
Dave

[ September 22, 2004, 07:33 PM: Message edited by: 2004 F150 4x4 ]

 

[427Z06]

Sounds to me like the EPA didn't want the "Fix Or Repair Daily" bunch to pull a fast one on them.

 

[Matt89]

quote:

---

Was 2003 and earlier a field test using owners vehicles ?

---

Motorbike;

I think the only thing 'field tested' in the EPA's mind was whether the 5W20s would actually be used. Like previous posters said their main concern was that they were giving a fuel savings credit for use of an oil that would actually be readily available and encouraged/required by manufacturers.

In other words, they were looking for confirmation data that using 5W20 for economy tests was justified, not confirmation that engine durability had not been affected. It would take a lot more than a couple years to learn that.

 

[mechtech]

Matt89 - Good call.

 

[MNgopher]

I agree - the comment was not an indication of field testing vehicles on 5w20. The automakers who took the plunge had already done that testing.

What EPA was trying to assure is that Ford, etc... didn't factory fill with 5w20, then not use in dealer service afterwords or not make any effort to get folks to use it. If nobody used it, then why should the EPA grant any fuel mileage credits for the use of it?

Thus, EPA wanted to verify by sales numbers how much 5w20 was being sold on the market, and by inference, assure itself the users were using 5w20 and manufactuers were supporting the production and sale of the product.

"Test Vehicle" as I interpret the meaning in these documents is any vehicle tested on the EPA cycles for fuel economy using 5w20, not the vehilce you or I are driving in everyday life.

 

[Palut]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Matt89:
In other words, they were looking for confirmation data that using 5W20 for economy tests was justified, not confirmation that engine durability had not been affected. It would take a lot more than a couple years to learn that.

---

I agree. I don't think the EPA would give a rip if people's engines were being ruined...they'd probably think it a good thing.

 

[Shannow]

quote:

---

Originally posted by MNgopher:
What EPA was trying to assure is that Ford, etc... didn't factory fill with 5w20, then not use in dealer service afterwords or not make any effort to get folks to use it. If nobody used it, then why should the EPA grant any fuel mileage credits for the use of it?

Thus, EPA wanted to verify by sales numbers how much 5w20 was being sold on the market, and by inference, assure itself the users were using 5w20 and manufactuers were supporting the production and sale of the product.

---

I agree wholeheartedly with your take on it.

As an aside, what would it cost the likes of FoMoCo to buy say 10 quarts of the cheapest 5W-20 per annum per car sold, versus the costs of not getting CAFE, versus the purchase price of the car ?