Engine flush 61,000 miles result

[OVERKILL]

Stranger still is the fact even with positive proof and experience that using flush agents work, there are those that will post up everything they can convince others that the truth does not exist.

Stating something works is not offering up proof, just FYI. You can claim the earth is flat, and in fact, it has about the same merit as claiming that ATF is a cleaner in the context of this thread. Just because you state it doesn't make it factually correct. I'm sure you can shoot 2,000 yard with .22LR too, with iron sights, right? Again, same merit. If ATF isn't formulated to be a cleaner, which it clearly isn't, based on input from an actual formulator, then somebody claiming it works well as one is either so steeped in their own brand of confirmation bias that objectivity has gone right out the window or they are simply trolling. I'm now leaning toward the latter given the data presented and responses received.

BTW, I'm glad I was able to post on this thread and be helpful. I like this Forum. For those of you who disagree with positive proof and honesty no problem. BITOG Rocks!!

Pretty sure the only one viewing your posts as helpful is you. The OP is banned and everybody else has taken issue with your statements with the exception of TiGeo who is poking fun at the ridiculousness of this whole exchange

Not sure why post count gets your thong tight. Nobody needs to "try" ATF in the oil to know it doesn't work, simple deference to the experts on the subject, which has been done, is more than sufficient. Any claims to the contrary are simply mental masturbation or abject trolling, take your pick.

 

[kschachn]

At some point one needs to cease making rational and substantive comments since they are not being met with like arguments. Eventually you notice that nothing of any technical nature is being discussed from the other side, only irrelevant and inane rebuttals.

 

[ABN_CBT_ENGR]

Stating something works is not offering up proof,

I'm going to throw this out to the masses as a general comment to shore up your point.

As a consultant with the climate going as it has in the last 20 odd years, I have learned ( at some cost) to avoid terms like that unless specifically qualified because its vague, open ended, open to individual interpretation, a "false standard" I can be held against and weaponized if someone's "perception" of "works" doesn't deliver the desired results.

 

[Trav]

I look at it this way, if I use a product for a specific issue like stick valve lifter/adjuster, or lower compression on one or more cylinders and it stops the ticking or raises the compression then it "worked" for what I wanted to use it for, any other claims on the can remain unsubstantiated.
Product that claim less wear, better MPG, deposit and sludge removal, etc are much more difficult to substantiate and most are suspect due to the nature and history of such products that have repeatedly been shown to do nothing more than liberate money out of the wallet.

 

[OVERKILL]

I look at it this way, if I use a product for a specific issue like stick valve lifter/adjuster, or lower compression on one or more cylinders and it stops the ticking or raises the compression then it "worked" for what I wanted to use it for, any other claims on the can remain unsubstantiated.
Product that claim less wear, better MPG, deposit and sludge removal, etc are much more difficult to substantiate and most are suspect due to the nature and history of such products that have repeatedly been shown to do nothing more than liberate money out of the wallet.

Indeed. AC Delco combustion chamber cleaner is an example of a product (solvent) that is designed specifically for one task and sold by the OEM for that, but due to that design, is effective at other things where carbonaceous deposits are an issue. I've used it with great success in cleaning out throttle bodies (the non coated kind) and Ford IAC valves over the years. I expect, given its effectiveness in dissolving carbon, that it may work as a piston soak and help restore compression, however I've never tested it in that role. I know you'd cited positive results with another solvent, Kreen, for that purpose as well.

However, with a solvent, and visible deposits, quantifying performance is exceedingly easy as rapid removal of those deposits is the goal. Things become more difficult when dealing with a product added to the crankcase and this is typically where claims seem to depart from reality when there is a desire for something to "work" but no inclination to do before/after inspection or measurements (like a compression test or leak-down) so we land on descriptive anecdotes like "smooth" and "peppy" and all manner of unquantifiable non-data. This is how we land on claims like ATF is a cleaner and other, to use your term, "Wizards in a can".

 

[OilReport99]

Mr. MolaKule's is just another opinion like any other. My results are based on actually...

I need more coffee. Be back soon fellas...

 

[ollie]

Stating something works is not offering up proof, just FYI. If ATF isn't formulated to be a cleaner, which it clearly isn't, based on input from an actual formulator, then somebody claiming it works well as one is either so steeped in their own brand of confirmation bias that objectivity has gone right out the window or they are simply trolling. I'm now leaning toward the latter given the data presented and responses received.

However, with a solvent, and visible deposits, quantifying performance is exceedingly easy as rapid removal of those deposits is the goal. Things become more difficult when dealing with a product added to the crankcase and this is typically where claims seem to depart from reality when there is a desire for something to "work" but no inclination to do before/after inspection or measurements (like a compression test or leak-down) so we land on descriptive anecdotes like "smooth" and "peppy" and all manner of unquantifiable non-data. This is how we land on claims like ATF is a cleaner and other, to use your term, "Wizards in a can".

I noticed your clever quoting has left out the fact that I noticed an immediate improvement to idle and performance to my motor. In the past I have seen engines valve/timing chain covers and oil pans off before and after using ATF as a flush. They were always cleaned of most all deposits and sludge after running ATF through an oil cycle. Now that is just my honest experience. It is your choice wether or not to believe me. It is common knowledge that hydrocarbons have many uses other than being added to ATF.

FWIW a leak down or compression test normally is not a good indicator of how good an oil flush works. Actually pulling the pan and valve covers and doing a visual is a much better way to see the results. Over the years I don't do the pan/valve cover removal because I already know that flushes work. So no need.

I am in no way discounting Mr. MolaKule's expertise as an engineer in oil formulation. I am willing to bet he will agree 100% that there are chemical formulations the will do much more than what they were designed for. A simple example is gasoline being used as a cleaning agent and lubricant. The 25%+ of isoalkanes in gas has many uses besides just the combustion process. I have used gas for everything from lubricating a tire bead for mounting on the trail to cleaning an air filter.

Most ATF formulations contain over 30% of naphthenes which is a group of hydrocarbons that can be used as an effective cleaning agent. The nucleophilic substitution reaction acts as a reagent to bond to the other chemicals that are the makeup of most ATF's. Yes I went to school. I took chemistry. It was not my major.

Not sure why post count gets your thong tight.

Who is trolling now?

 

[OVERKILL]

I noticed your clever quoting has left out the fact that I noticed an immediate improvement to idle and performance to my motor.

Again, those are not actual validations of performance, that's "butt dyno" stuff.

In the past I have seen engines valve/timing chain covers and oil pans off before and after using ATF as a flush. They were always cleaned of most all deposits and sludge after running ATF through an oil cycle. Now that is just my honest experience. It is your choice wether or not to believe me. It is common knowledge that hydrocarbons have many uses other than being added to ATF.

Per Molakule, modern ATF lacks detergents and dispersants to deal with the contaminants produced by an internal combustion engine. There are hydrocarbons in all products being discussed, including engine oil, which also has the components noted added to prevent sludge, varnish and other deposits from forming and in fact there are numerous specific sequences specifically crafted for these purposes that an oil must pass.

When you say "in the past" how far back are we talking? If it was the sperm oil days, that observation has far more merit, but formulations are not static and from what we've been presented with, ATF is no longer formulated with those components.

FWIW a leak down or compression test normally is not a good indicator of how good an oil flush works.

No, but a compression or leak-down test is a good way to determine if a product claiming to clean up the ring land area works, something that can't be discerned otherwise without an actual tear-down.

Actually pulling the pan and valve covers and doing a visual is a much better way to see the results. Over the years I don't do the pan/valve cover removal because I already know that flushes work. So no need.

So then you aren't currently validating any sort of performance. This ties into my question above when you say "in the past" as to what decade that was?

I am in no way discounting Mr. MolaKule's expertise as an engineer in oil formulation. I am willing to bet he will agree 100% that there are chemical formulations the will do much more than what they were designed for. A simple example is gasoline being used as a cleaning agent and lubricant. The 25%+ of isoalkanes in gas has many uses besides just the combustion process. I have used gas for everything from lubricating a tire bead for mounting on the trail to cleaning an air filter.

Yes, because gas is an effective solvent. Your claims that ATF is a cleanser and calling him "just another member" does in fact act as discounting his expertise, so on this question, let's actually ask @MolaKule for his insight if he's willing to expand his input beyond the quote from a previous discussion that I already provided.

Most ATF formulations contain over 30% of naphthenes which is a group of hydrocarbons that can be used as an effective cleaning agent. The nucleophilic substitution reaction acts as a reagent to bond to the other chemicals that are the makeup of most ATF's. Yes I went to school. I took chemistry. It was not my major.

Again, quoting Molakule:

Today's ATF has only 4.2% of the detergency as current motor oils and little to no naphthenics.

So what is the source of your figure?

Here is an MSDS shot from M1 ATF for reference which shows 20-30% PAO and 50-60% Group III:

Here is Mobil's ATF +4 formulation, 50-60% what appears to be Group II, 20-30% Group III:

 

[kschachn]

I noticed your clever quoting has left out the fact that I noticed an immediate improvement to idle and performance to my motor. In the past I have seen engines valve/timing chain covers and oil pans off before and after using ATF as a flush. They were always cleaned of most all deposits and sludge after running ATF through an oil cycle. Now that is just my honest experience. It is your choice wether or not to believe me. It is common knowledge that hydrocarbons have many uses other than being added to ATF.

FWIW a leak down or compression test normally is not a good indicator of how good an oil flush works. Actually pulling the pan and valve covers and doing a visual is a much better way to see the results. Over the years I don't do the pan/valve cover removal because I already know that flushes work. So no need.

I am in no way discounting Mr. MolaKule's expertise as an engineer in oil formulation. I am willing to bet he will agree 100% that there are chemical formulations the will do much more than what they were designed for. A simple example is gasoline being used as a cleaning agent and lubricant. The 25%+ of isoalkanes in gas has many uses besides just the combustion process. I have used gas for everything from lubricating a tire bead for mounting on the trail to cleaning an air filter.

Most ATF formulations contain over 30% of naphthenes which is a group of hydrocarbons that can be used as an effective cleaning agent. The nucleophilic substitution reaction acts as a reagent to bond to the other chemicals that are the makeup of most ATF's. Yes I went to school. I took chemistry. It was not my major.

Nice cut-and-paste of stuff you found on the Internet. I don't have a degree in chemistry either but it was my minor. Granted a minor in something doesn't get you a lot, but one thing it does is help detect when people are talking out their backside about the subject.

 

[ollie]

An MSDS sheet of chemicals used in ATF is helpful. However, it does not discount the fact that ATF is an effective agent to use as a cleaner. While motor oil with detergents can be effective it is simply not as aggressive as ATF.

I do have to state that not all engines are going to need a flush. An example is my mom's Camry. That thing had almost 400,000 miles before she got rid of it. Under the valve covers were always clean and the oil at every change was clean as well.

My Chevy Silverado's motor was filthy and oil changes around the 150K mark were black. Not good for Mobil 1 oil changes every 3,000 miles. As stated in my earlier post a few oil cycles with one or two quarts of ATF solved the issue and my oil changes were clean for almost the last 150,000 miles of the motor.

Something to be noted is at 150,000 miles I also god rid of the K&N air filter and put the OEM style back in. It may had been a factor of dust getting into the motor and degrading the oil. I quit running K&N's when I started finding a trail of silt in the intake tube when driving off road in the desert.

When I got my current truck at just under 60,000 miles it had a K&N filter as well. Not sure if it was taken off road or not. The underside of the truck was pretty clean when I put my lift in. I did get rid of the filter though.

I am convinced that dirty air getting into the motor is a contributing factor with the oil getting dirty between oil changes. I know in my dirt bikes if the filter is not seated, the oil comes out black. And I change out the oil every 10-20 hours religiously.

Nice cut-and-paste of stuff you found on the Internet. I don't have a degree in chemistry either but it was my minor. Granted a minor in something doesn't get you a lot, but it does help to detect when people are talking out their backside about something.

Believe what you will. The only thing I cut and pasted were words I forgot the spelling of, the chemical properties sequence, and percentage. I am the first to admit I cant remember formulas off the top of my head. Chemistry class was over 40 years and more than 10 elements ago!! To give you an idea how long ago that was, Bohrium was being heavily researched and talked about while I was taking that course.

FWIW I have been in the petroleum industry for over 17 years so I do know a thing or two about chemical composition. It was part of my job handling Haz Mat.

I hope this gives members here a better understanding of what parameters I follow that initiate a flush.

 

[TiGeo]

An MSDS sheet of chemicals used in ATF is helpful. However, it does not discount the fact that ATF is an effective agent to use as a cleaner. While motor oil with detergents can be effective it is simply not as aggressive as ATF.

I do have to state that not all engines are going to need a flush. An example is my mom's Camry. That thing had almost 400,000 miles before she got rid of it. Under the valve covers were always clean and the oil at every change was clean as well.

My Chevy Silverado's motor was filthy and oil changes around the 150K mark were black. Not good for Mobil 1 oil changes every 3,000 miles. As stated in my earlier post a few oil cycles with one or two quarts of ATF solved the issue and my oil changes were clean for almost the last 150,000 miles of the motor.

Something to be noted is at 150,000 miles I also god rid of the K&N air filter and put the OEM style back in. It may had been a factor of dust getting into the motor and degrading the oil. I quit running K&N's when I started finding a trail of silt in the intake tube when driving off road in the desert.

When I got my current truck at just under 60,000 miles it had a K&N filter as well. Not sure if it was taken off road or not. The underside of the truck was pretty clean when I put my lift in. I did get rid of the filter though.

I am convinced that dirty air getting into the motor is a contributing factor with the oil getting dirty between oil changes. I know in my dirt bikes if the filter is not seated, the oil comes out black. And I change out the oil every 10-20 hours religiously.



Believe what you will. The only thing I cut and pasted were words I forgot the spelling of, the chemical properties sequence, and percentage. I am the first to admit I cant remember formulas off the top of my head. Chemistry class was over 40 years and more than 10 elements ago!! To give you an idea how long ago that was, Bohrium was being heavily researched and talked about while I was taking that course.

FWIW I have been in the petroleum industry for over 17 years so I do know a thing or two about chemical composition. It was part of my job handling Haz Mat.

I hope this gives members here a better understanding of what parameters I follow that initiate a flush.

My question is...why not use one of the products available off the shelf like the Liquimoly Proline Engine Flush, Amsoil, etc. vs. ATF?

 

[OVERKILL]

An MSDS sheet of chemicals used in ATF is helpful. However, it does not discount the fact that ATF is an effective agent to use as a cleaner. While motor oil with detergents can be effective it is simply not as aggressive as ATF.

The MSDS sheets presented show that there is not a 30% naphthenic base oil component to modern ATF's, which is in-line with what Molakule has stated. And again, your claims as to the effectiveness of ATF completely contradict his expert statements on the subject so I definitely hope that he'll choose to engage here and discuss the chemistry further with you, that is, if you are willing to reconsider your adherence to the philosophy that modern ATF's (not to be confused with vintage ATF's that had components that could provide cleaning capability, particularly given the chemistry of lubricants of the day) are effective cleaners.

Something to be noted is at 150,000 miles I also god rid of the K&N air filter and put the OEM style back in. It may had been a factor of dust getting into the motor and degrading the oil. I quit running K&N's when I started finding a trail of silt in the intake tube when driving off road in the desert.

When I got my current truck at just under 60,000 miles it had a K&N filter as well. Not sure if it was taken off road or not. The underside of the truck was pretty clean when I put my lift in. I did get rid of the filter though.

I am convinced that dirty air getting into the motor is a contributing factor with the oil getting dirty between oil changes. I know in my dirt bikes if the filter is not seated, the oil comes out black. And I change out the oil every 10-20 hours religiously.

Yes, an ineffective air filter can most certainly lead to contamination of the lubricant and it has been oft stated that the most important filter on an engine is the air filter. There's a current K&N thread in the Air Filter section where I posted some comparison data which you may find of interest on the subject.

 

[OVERKILL]

Believe what you will. The only thing I cut and pasted were words I forgot the spelling of, the chemical properties sequence, and percentage.

A quick Google yielded that same percentage figure in a lawsuit originating from an Exxon ATF formulation patent originating from prior to 1982:

T 0256/96 (ATF's/IDEMITSU) 13-11-1998 | Epo.org

www.epo.org

SAE Paper 821242 from 1982 is cited as one of the references for base oil selection, which appears to be based on Exxon's contribution, hence the lawsuit:

Significant Considerations in Selecting Base Stocks for Automatic Transmission Fluids

The results of numerous laboratory bench tests and over-the-road field tests conducted on fluids blended with base stocks of varying physical properties are compared.The effects of using oils derived from solvent-refining versus those manufactured from a hydrotreating process are examined.Other area

www.sae.org

This is likely that "past formulations" figure where sperm whale oil was actively in use that Molakule cited. This clearly differs dramatically from the composition of modern ATF's like those whose MSDS sheets I provided earlier.

 

[IndyFan]

I flush my engines every 5k to 7k with new high quality synthetic moto oil and a new filter. Comes out looking pretty dark, so I think its a great thing to do!

 

[gathermewool]

Overkill, this guy is obviously trolling the heck out of you AND WINNING. He’s probably enjoying the first of his favorite beverages of choice of this fine afternoon while you’re popping your third Xanax!

 

[OVERKILL]

Overkill, this guy is obviously trolling the heck out of you AND WINNING. He’s probably enjoying the first of his favorite beverages of choice of this fine afternoon while you’re popping your third Xanax!

I'm too young for Xanax! I am on my fourth coffee though LOL!

 

[ollie]

I will not even think of trying to match my wit with anyone here including an engineer in oils. I substantiate my results with my personal integrity and forthcoming proof that can only be disputed by those that choose not to believe me. That's cool.

 

[PimTac]

I will not even think of trying to match my wit with anyone here including an engineer in oils. I substantiate my results with my personal integrity and forthcoming proof that can only be disputed by those that choose not to believe me. That's cool.

Whatever this means? Forthcoming proof?

Ollie/Imsa, ️

 

[ABN_CBT_ENGR]

Whatever this means? Forthcoming proof?

Ollie/Imsa,

He talks like that because he went to "nucular" science back before Harvard

 

[blingo]

Okay, we all adopted a new spelling, but do we really need to talk that much about all these things nucular? If I needed to talk that much about CAFE I would have issues I guess.