Ecotec

[LTVibe]

Not meaning to bash Toyota, but on the subject of Camrys, the 2007 model has a number of drivetrain "upgrades" which may be of concern to potential buyers of early production units:

Toyota Recalling Camry

The newest edition of the Toyota Camry is being recalled for a problem with the transmission. The problem, Toyota says, involved only a half-percent of Camrys built thus far for the 2007 model year. The new six-speed automatic transmission could lose second and sixth gear during operation. Toyota told Reuters the vehicle still will operate even if the gears are lost, and that the problem usually happens within the first 500 miles of use.

TheCarConnection

 

[ekpolk]

LT: Your posts raises another interesting issue. This sort of debate usually rages along with both sides taking absolute and extreme positions. GM is great and Toyota sucks. Toyota is great and GM sucks. This quickly becomes useless, as it is the extremists that repeat their extreme positions over and over, back and forth.

If you look at my posts, and some others by less black-and-white extreme members, you'll see something closer to reality -- that is, no car nor car maker is perfect. I can think of at least a dozen things that Japanese car makers have screwed up or that I don't like about their cars. Don't forget, Toyota had the sludge debacle too. I even owned one of those cars (but didn't let it get sludgy, of course

). As I've noted in this very thread, the Ecotec is a nice little engine. GM should be rightfully proud of this one. It is, however, when you tally up all the good and bad things, that for me anyway, I'm led to car makers other than our major domestic players. I hope that changes in the future. Now, lght, regardless of how you feel about Toyotas, can you admit that GM makes a less-than-perfect product???

 

[Minou]

quote:

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Originally posted by ekpolk:

quote:

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Originally posted by Minou:
(...snip...)
In Montreal, where gas is the most expensive in North America, Toyota (4 cylinder) Camry taxis are all over the place now.

They cost more than off lease large american sedans but are probably cheaper to run on the long haul.

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Hmmmmm, 4-cyl Camrys as taxis -- in icy Montreal -- nothing corrosive to deal with up there. . . Keeping it somewhat pertinent, are there, by chance, any Ecotec-powered Malibus performing the same duty?

I wonder, rhetorically, why the Camrys cost more than the large American sedans. The unavoidable mechanics of the Supply-and-Demand rule always seem to get to the bottom of things. Four-cylinder Camrys, no less. . .

A colleague of mine stills gets around in the 95 Camry she bought new, almost 12 years ago. It's a 4-cyl XLE model (most luxurious in the CE/LE/SE/XLE structure). It still looks and feels like a "Junior Lexus", inside and out.

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We still see a lot of american sedans performing taxi duty, including the Malibu, Impala and minivans. I guess they make sense when bought at a big discount from fleet rental car companies when they dump them every year.

One thing is for sure, the era of V8 Caprices and Crown Vics taxi cabs is long gone over here. I wonder how the taxi cabs of America will evolve into if gas keeps going up like this?

 

[LTVibe]

quote:

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Originally posted by ekpolk:
-- that is, no car nor car maker is perfect.

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That sums it up, end of debate. (We wish!

)

I do believe there is one thing about Toyota (and others?) that is "perfect", and that is their corporate attitude. They never gloat about their success nor assume they will always be successful. And those who purchase the problem '07 Camrys will most likely be treated like royalty until fixed.

 

[ekpolk]

OK, OK, let's stick with the "easily observable" then. Can you show me any GM V-6 that has turned in a performance like this one? Gee, and mine did this without even having its intake manifold, gaskets, or both, replaced.

Now, coming to think of it, I haven't been able to easily observe any of those nice Chevy Citations that were built around the time Toyota was last producing truly rust-prone mini-pickups. Where have the Citations all gone??? That one was a real gem (built before GM figured out that brakes are actually supposed to stop cars). At least those 'yotas are still on the road and working well enough that someone's willing to put silly wooden beds on them.

LT -- sorry, I couldn't resist -- dream on. . .

 

[T-Keith]

quote:

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Originally posted by ekpolk:
OK, OK, let's stick with the "easily observable" then. Can you show me any GM V-6 that has turned in a performance like this one? Gee, and mine did this without even having its intake manifold, gaskets, or both, replaced.

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YES, and with oil that cost 10 times less, and a lot more miles on the car.

 

[JHZR2]

quote:

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Originally posted by bar1:

quote:

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Originally posted by ekpolk:
Ecotec anyone?
.. why is GM's small car drive train so much less efficient than that of the overseas makers???

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Do you get the Cobalt with the newest Ecotec 1.8 engine? The 140 hp version has better fuel economy numbers than the older 125 hp version.
That would do well compared to the competitors..
http://www.opel.de/shop/cars/astra/...GSlYqW!-1427379474!2084350091?engine=2H0&.act

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Couldnt get your link to load...

Is it really a 1.8L displacement, or just a play on words??? For example, the same 2.0L ecotec block (which is identical to the 2.2L ecotec engine found in the cobalt)used in the saab 9-3 (saab is given the best castings apparently, though Im not sure what metric they use) is listed as three engines in the European 9-3 lineup: 1.8t, 2.0t and 2.0T. All are the identical displacement, the 1.8 is just derated to 150 or so hp, and so they gave it a lesser number to satisfy peoples' vanity.

I wasnt aware that there is a 1.8L variant of the block that creates the 2.0L (saab) and 2.2L (chevy, etc) engine.

JMH

P.S. it just loaded... awesome site with the breakdown of the engines! Its neat to see how many variants exist... I wonder how many different block and head variations exist to mix and match to make all those engines?

 

[JHZR2]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Minou:

quote:

---

Originally posted by ekpolk:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Minou:
(...snip...)
In Montreal, where gas is the most expensive in North America, Toyota (4 cylinder) Camry taxis are all over the place now.

They cost more than off lease large american sedans but are probably cheaper to run on the long haul.

---

Hmmmmm, 4-cyl Camrys as taxis -- in icy Montreal -- nothing corrosive to deal with up there. . . Keeping it somewhat pertinent, are there, by chance, any Ecotec-powered Malibus performing the same duty?

I wonder, rhetorically, why the Camrys cost more than the large American sedans. The unavoidable mechanics of the Supply-and-Demand rule always seem to get to the bottom of things. Four-cylinder Camrys, no less. . .

A colleague of mine stills gets around in the 95 Camry she bought new, almost 12 years ago. It's a 4-cyl XLE model (most luxurious in the CE/LE/SE/XLE structure). It still looks and feels like a "Junior Lexus", inside and out.

---

We still see a lot of american sedans performing taxi duty, including the Malibu, Impala and minivans. I guess they make sense when bought at a big discount from fleet rental car companies when they dump them every year.

One thing is for sure, the era of V8 Caprices and Crown Vics taxi cabs is long gone over here. I wonder how the taxi cabs of America will evolve into if gas keeps going up like this?

---

My impression was the taxi industry was dominated by crown vic and caprice cars because the police industry is dominated by them, and many police cars become taxis in the secondary market.

I have seen very few impala taxis, and no other sorts of car taxis.

I have sen quite a few Honda Odessey and Toyota Sienna taxis though... no domestic makes however.

JMH

 

[ekpolk]

TK:

Respectfully, NO! Your engine is in fantastic shape, especially for its age, but: 1) It needed make-up oil before the end of the OCI (mine did not), 2) your insols are 3X what mine were (though hardly bad), 3) no ISO Cleanliness level shown, and 4) your engine sheared the oil down out just into the 30 wt range, and ran the flashpoint below the flag level.

Still a great result, and one I'd be happy to get, especially from an engine saved from the brink of coolant-leak disaster, and with 4X the miles I have. All that said, I'm happier with mine. And still -- those lurking questions -- why a coolant problem in the first place???

 

[Papa Bear]

Don't post those stupid long links, they screw up the post.
Sorry, P.B.

 

[Matt_S]

In response to JHZR2, the ecotec variations probably all use the same block, just bored differently and fitted with different pistons, rods and crankshafts to make the different displacements.

 

[Matt_S]

quote:

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Originally posted by JHZR2:
My impression was the taxi industry was dominated by crown vic and caprice cars because the police industry is dominated by them, and many police cars become taxis in the secondary market.

I have seen very few impala taxis, and no other sorts of car taxis.

I have sen quite a few Honda Odessey and Toyota Sienna taxis though... no domestic makes however.

JMH

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Your impression is correct in my experience. The complex where I work (downtown Detroit) contains a very large hotel that often hosts large parties and other events, so I often see a lot of taxi cabs. ALL the Crown Vics, which make up the vast majority of the cabs here in Detroit, wear Police Interceptor badges. I don't see any Caprices anymore. There are a bunch of minivans now, mostly previous-gen GM products and a few Chryslers (no Fords or foreign makes). That's about it, though. There's nothing smaller than a Crown Vic, nothing foreign and a LOT of crappy paint jobs.

 

[LTVibe]

Here is a curious bit of Ecotec trivia. According to this web page, the supercharged version used in the Cobalt SS and Saturn ION Red Line is built in Germany.

 

[brianl703]

The Washington Flyer Taxi service (out of Dulles and Reagan National) seems to be using lots of GM SUVs.

Fredericksburg, Virginia's taxi company uses a lot of older domestic vehicles, including a pre-1995 Mercury Tracer.

 

[T-Keith]

quote:

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Originally posted by ekpolk:
TK:

Respectfully, NO! Your engine is in fantastic shape, especially for its age, but: 1) It needed make-up oil before the end of the OCI (mine did not), 2) your insols are 3X what mine were (though hardly bad), 3) no ISO Cleanliness level shown, and 4) your engine sheared the oil down out just into the 30 wt range, and ran the flashpoint below the flag level.

Still a great result, and one I'd be happy to get, especially from an engine saved from the brink of coolant-leak disaster, and with 4X the miles I have. All that said, I'm happier with mine. And still -- those lurking questions -- why a coolant problem in the first place???

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Perhaps if I had used $5 oil and a $10 filter I could have had lower insolubles and less shear, but aparently the 3800 must be made better if it still has less wear. We were talking about engine performance right? I don't wonder why a car with 240,000 miles and poor maintenance has a coolant leak, I'm just happy $3 of tabs fixes it.

I'm still giving it a YES, you can take it however you want.

 

[lght1]

Hi


Regarding the intake repair, it is easily done in an afternoon by many a shade tree mechanic. By using the Dorman UIM and GM's LIM alum framed gasket, can be done for about $250.00. I installed my aluminum and the LIM gaskets last year in 4 hrs which included a few breaks.

It sure beats doing this once in 300,000 miles rather than fighting a continuous battle with corrosion.

I would like GM to admit a design flaw once it is apparent and act on it accordingly. The composite UIM of the 3800 Series II and the lower intake gaskets of the 3100 and 3400s area case in point.

In 2004, GM finally fixed the UIM issue of the 3800 by using cast aluminum. This negated any issue with the hot egr chimney and any warping. The engine is now the Series III. It uses a drive by wire TB.
With slight modifications, I use that UIM on my Olds.

 

[ekpolk]

quote:

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Originally posted by T-Keith:
[(...snip...) I'm just happy $3 of tabs fixes it.

I'm still giving it a YES, you can take it however you want.

---

OK then, we can just agree to disagree on that one.

Still a big NO to me. I mean, I could almost agree with you if my engine's cooling system also needed to be fed chopped vegetable tablets to keep from spilling itself into the crankcase, but strangely enough, it does not. . .

 

[lght1]

Hi

T-Keith:

The repair on these engines is real easy and relativly inexpensive.

In fact, I wouldnt be surprised if your Buick "H-body" probably is much like my LSS with absolutely no corrosion. This is not something all of the competition can say as they age.

My 4T60E is orig to the car and has 220,000 miles on it.

Long live the king, here comes Dexron VI.

 

[T-Keith]

quote:

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Originally posted by lght1:
Hi

T-Keith:

The repair on these engines is real easy and relativly inexpensive.

In fact, I wouldnt be surprised if your Buick "H-body" probably is much like my LSS with absolutely no corrosion. This is not something all of the competition can say as they age.

My 4T60E is orig to the car and has 220,000 miles on it.

Long live the king, here comes Dexron VI.

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Wish I could say that but I'm in MN. Nothing gets out of this state without corrosion. That said, I probably see a 15 year old Honda or Toyota once a month, I see 15-20 year old GMs several times a day.

 

[T-Keith]

quote:

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Originally posted by ekpolk:

quote:

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Originally posted by T-Keith:
[(...snip...) I'm just happy $3 of tabs fixes it.

I'm still giving it a YES, you can take it however you want.

---

OK then, we can just agree to disagree on that one.

Still a big NO to me. I mean, I could almost agree with you if my engine's cooling system also needed to be fed chopped vegetable tablets to keep from spilling itself into the crankcase, but strangely enough, it does not. . .

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Let me know if that's still true at 227,000 miles.