Ecotec

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I think it has to do with preference. Though, it does help the economy to buy Made in USA (just read history), people have the freedom to choose where to send their money.

I do all I can to buy Made in USA. My preference. I've gotten praised and burned for it. Hey, this is America after all and I choose to support the entity that gave me the freedom to choose!
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quote:

Originally posted by dailydriver:

quote:

Originally posted by cousincletus:
It's hard to reason with the American haters/GM bashers. They need to justify sending their money overseas and paying more for an import car somehow.

Sad, but true.
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Then they will try to justify by saying they were built here, or the content was from here. Doesn't matter. What they forget is that the excessive profits and money STILL go OVERTHERE!!


Yes there's plenty of Americans making a decent living manufacturing Japanese cars in this country.
The Big 3 profits go to stockholders.
GM,Ford and Chrysler are responsible for their problems.
I own a '05 Toyota Corolla LE,'05 Ford Explorer and a '06 Cobalt LT.
You don't have to ask me which vehicle is the most solid well made one.You know.
Most likely my last purchase of a US badge.

A not so funny thing is with American badge rebates,low interest financing and employee pricing just makes the quality difference worse.
Less profit means less research and development.
Sorry but I can't shed a tear for the Big 3.
They made their bed and must toss and turn in it.
If it wasn't for Japanese,we would have the same crap quality American badge vehicles of the 70's and 80's.
 
quote:

Originally posted by dailydriver:

quote:

Originally posted by cousincletus:
It's hard to reason with the American haters/GM bashers. They need to justify sending their money overseas and paying more for an import car somehow.

Sad, but true.
frown.gif
Then they will try to justify by saying they were built here, or the content was from here. Doesn't matter. What they forget is that the excessive profits and money STILL go OVERTHERE!!


Sounds to me like we've got a very serious case of equally black kettles and pots calling each other black.

I've owned both. Let's use academic grades to help sharpen the comparison. My last two domestics were a Buick Regal GS and a Mercury Sable. Being generous, those cars would get a D and a C- respectively. Our Toyota Sequoia is an easy A and my G35, an A- or B+.

Cletus, honestly, I'm more concerned about where my profits go than the corporate money trail. With those two domestics, an inordinate amount of my money went to fix things that simply should not need to be fixed (in a non-ancient car). When you add the ridiculous things I had to fix on the Regal, shortly post wty of course, to the cost of that car, it was no bargain (and much more costly than a comparable Honda or Toyota). Similar story with the Sable.

If I provide you a poor product or service, that ends up repeatedly costing you extra $ out of your pocket, how many times can I ask you to buy from me again just because I'm the local guy?

The ecotec and the SC 3.8L are both examples of nice engines that prove that domestic car makers can do good things. Now they just have to start building cars around them that I actually want and might trust. They aren't doing that today.
 
quote:

Originally posted by Colt:
snip....
The Big 3 profits go to stockholders.
snip....


What profits? Much of the price of a big 3 goes to taking care of retirees. Toyota doesn't give them a dime.
 
quote:

Originally posted by labman:

quote:

Originally posted by Colt:
snip....
The Big 3 profits go to stockholders.
snip....


What profits? Much of the price of a big 3 goes to taking care of retirees. Toyota doesn't give them a dime.


True.
No profits because they effed up.
Why should Toyota give them anything?
I buy what I think is the best value for my dollar.
I bought the Explorer only because I got just under $9K off the sticker with a $4K rebate,employee pricing and some haggling.
Bought the Cobalt because I know a chevy salesman who gave me the car at invoice and deducted two GM $250 of coupons and also had $946 GM credit card points which is also was deducted of the bottom line.
The Cobalt is an improvement over my son Cavalier.Not really a bad car but not as solid as the Corolla.
 
quote:

Originally posted by dailydriver:
Sad, but true.
frown.gif
Then they will try to justify by saying they were built here, or the content was from here. Doesn't matter. What they forget is that the excessive profits and money STILL go OVERTHERE!! [/QB]

Well, I am one of those Americans that works for a Japanese company. Let me start by saying that I pay taxes and my company pays taxes right here in the USA like the big 3. When we were purchased by the Japanese company, we had to start doing all kinds of new accounting tests during audits to make sure that we weren't transferring profits to Japan. The IRS looks at the transfer pricing issue every year to make sure that profit that is made here is taxed here, and they make sure that our manufacturer in Japan isn't jacking up our costs to move the profit over to Japan.

Also, if you think there is such thing as an American car anymore you are delusional. Your American car is made by Mexicans and Canadians too, and they have a lot of Japanese and Chinese parts in them. My company sells to the big 3 and the reason that an American made product isn't sold to them is because they consistently beat our margins to death and forced us to move stuff to overseas companies. Don't get me started with Visteon's "pay for play" program that stated they wanted 5% of the total savings we promise (over the contract term) up front in cash before they even place their first order!

That said, when it comes to quality the American companies are easier to deal with. When something fails they wait to see a trend before they even bother us. With companies like Toyota, if a light bulb blows there is a full investigation, 8D analysis, outside sorting companies, etc. You decide which company is more quality concious...

I am just saying that a lot of people perceive the import car manufacturers as the evil invader, but that is not the whole picture. It's more complicated then most people think.
 
quote:

Originally posted by Laminar Lou:

quote:

Originally posted by dailydriver:
Sad, but true.
frown.gif
Then they will try to justify by saying they were built here, or the content was from here. Doesn't matter. What they forget is that the excessive profits and money STILL go OVERTHERE!!
Well, I am one of those Americans that works for a Japanese company. Let me start by saying that I pay taxes and my company pays taxes right here in the USA like the big 3. When we were purchased by the Japanese company, we had to start doing all kinds of new accounting tests during audits to make sure that we weren't transferring profits to Japan. The IRS looks at the transfer pricing issue every year to make sure that profit that is made here is taxed here, and they make sure that our manufacturer in Japan isn't jacking up our costs to move the profit over to Japan.

Also, if you think there is such thing as an American car anymore you are delusional. Your American car is made by Mexicans and Canadians too, and they have a lot of Japanese and Chinese parts in them. My company sells to the big 3 and the reason that an American made product isn't sold to them is because they consistently beat our margins to death and forced us to move stuff to overseas companies. Don't get me started with Visteon's "pay for play" program that stated they wanted 5% of the total savings we promise (over the contract term) up front in cash before they even place their first order!

That said, when it comes to quality the American companies are easier to deal with. When something fails they wait to see a trend before they even bother us. With companies like Toyota, if a light bulb blows there is a full investigation, 8D analysis, outside sorting companies, etc. You decide which company is more quality concious...

I am just saying that a lot of people perceive the import car manufacturers as the evil invader, but that is not the whole picture. It's more complicated then most people think. [/QB]

Lou.your post just about says it all.
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From the Allpar.com site:

"Allpar News: Chrysler asks for quality recognition


The claim that "Big Three market share is declining" is technically accurate, but unfair. Only Ford and GM have lost share this year. The Chrysler Group U.S. market share grew a full half-point last month and is up for the year. Through November, our sales were up 5 percent for the year.

The difference in quality among automakers as measured by J.D. Power is down to fractions. This year, our quality was only two-tenths of a point per vehicle out of first place—and less than a tenth of a point per vehicle away from Honda. The big story and long-term trend on quality is that it's up across the industry. All automakers are building high-quality vehicles. The Chrysler Group improved its J.D. Power IQS score 14 years in a row.


Toyota recalled 2.2 million vehicles this year. We've recalled 750,000. GM has recalled 4 million. Ford has recalled 6 million.

DaimlerChrysler, Ford and GM manufacture 75 percent of the cars and trucks made in America, employ almost 90 percent of all U.S. auto workers and buy 80 percent of all U.S. auto parts. Domestic parts content on DaimlerChrysler, Ford and GM vehicles sold in the United States averages 80 percent, compared with only 31 percent for Japanese manufacturers "

http://www.allpar.com/news/index.php?action=fullnews&showcomments=1&id=511
 
quote:

Originally posted by Colt:

quote:

Originally posted by labman:

quote:

Originally posted by Colt:
snip....
The Big 3 profits go to stockholders.
snip....


What profits? Much of the price of a big 3 goes to taking care of retirees. Toyota doesn't give them a dime.


Why should Toyota give them anything?
I buy what I think is the best value for my dollar.


Because your dollar will eventually go to those retirees whom toyota doesent give two cents about... You may not send the profits on your car to Japan... but all the same, down the line all the toyota retirees will be dependent upon "the system" because they never had any sort of corporate sugar daddy, so youll get the double whammy there. The fatcats wont pay tax, the poor folks wont pay tax... so you'll pay for it all. Value? Im not so sure the numbers add up.

JMH
 
quote:

Originally posted by Kernel Potter:
From the Allpar.com site:

DaimlerChrysler, Ford and GM manufacture 75 percent of the cars and trucks made in America, employ almost 90 percent of all U.S. auto workers and buy 80 percent of all U.S. auto parts. Domestic parts content on DaimlerChrysler, Ford and GM vehicles sold in the United States averages 80 percent, compared with only 31 percent for Japanese manufacturers "

http://www.allpar.com/news/index.php?action=fullnews&showcomments=1&id=511


Employing 90% of all U.S. auto workers is different then saying 90% of their workforce is American. Just wanted to point that out.

I don’t want to get into a statistics war, all I am saying that the Japanese aren’t evil. When we were bought by the Japanese, our benefits increased dramatically. They doubled the amount they put into our 401K, increased our vacation, and our salaries all got a little lift. So, in my situation, I didn’t find that our new Japanese owners were trying to shaft us American employees. I sit on the Board and I have seen the CEO (American) try to screw employees on retirement and the Japanese board members wouldn’t go for it. It wasn’t “honorable” in their terms. They also won’t play any games with accounting, whereas I can’t say the same for American companies.

Bottom line, both my cars are imports but built in the US. I didn’t buy them because of any other reason that they are quality vehicles and represented good fit and function in my opinion. Ultimately, the consumer is going to buy what he/she believes is the best value. Whether that perception is flawed is anyone’s opinion, but I think there is a reason that Japanese auto makers have increased market share.
 
some good learning points, Lou...

Do you think this is the case with all Japanese takepvers??? I dont think that the folks that have been taken over by, say Sony (like the CBS turned into Sony Music) have it quite so peachy. At least thats my impression.

JMH
 
quote:

When we were bought by the Japanese, our benefits increased dramatically.

The company I last worked for was purchased by NTT.

About the only benefit I got is that my stock options actually became worth something.

Other than that, it was meet the new boss, same as the old boss. Nothing changed, and to this day, they are as screwed up as ever.
 
Has anyone noticed GM has switched terminologies for the latest OHV 3.9l w/ vvt? Instead of OHV, they are calling it "cam in block!"
 
Hi

I have for years heard about how superiour Toys are over domestics.

From my vantage point, those Camrys in the office with +/- 100k mi look shopworn compared to my own Olds LSS (220k mi) and the Impalas with just over 100k mi.

They run, but in overall appearance, interior condition and overall NVH, they do not like rough conditions.

My neighbor's '01 camry is starting its date with oxidation in the lower section of the door skin.

BTW, a 2001 Sonata runs super quiet, almost like my 3800 V6, except the hyndai is on its third engine.

They run..but arent nearly as nice at 100k as the GM's are, which includes my 220k mi work car.
 
Ive seen some nasty busted and disgracefully adged GM products... but I agree.

My finacee's mother's camry in the USVI is a good example. Definitely didnt grace as well as their older 4runner, or their other cars. I think a lot of it has to do with materials selection...

And remember, what makes materials look 'richer' at the start, also makes them degrade a lot faster... Ive never seena hard GM dash crack from UV and thermal cycling...

JMH
 
Hi

My olds doesnt use a hard dash design, and still no cracking.

The leather seats still look nice, and are in need of nothing beyond regular conditioning using Meguier's.

The Camrys al have various squeaks and rattles. None in my car nor any of the Impalas.

The conditions are all the same, including roads which are rotten and getting worse.
 
Ecotec anyone? The original poster sought comment on this engine.

Earlier today, I asked why it is that this engine, surely a smooth and powerful I-4, can only muster mid-size gas mileage when installed in a small Cobalt. It's highway mileage rating (34 in the Cobalt) is identical to that of the I-4 Camry and Accord. The Cobalts Japanese competitors get 38-40 hwy (Civic) or even 41 mpg (Corolla). Sure, the Ecotec is a 2.2L, whereas the Civic and Corolla have sub-2.0L engines (which of course begs the question of why the Cobalt needs a 2.2L to keep up with the 1.8L competition...). My question seems to have been left on the table.

So, my question for lght1 and the others who are favoring the domestic brands, is why is GM's small car drive train so much less efficient than that of the overseas makers??? The Ecotec is a sweet, nice-to-drive engine, but if you're picking based upon economy (which a lot of folks are going to be doing...), why would you pick an Ecotec? 34 mpg vs. 41 mpg -- no brainer?
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Hi

I rented a Cobalt LT , and with the auto, got 36mpg on that trip.

I have heard many Corrollas at about 38.

Not much difference esp whn one considers the 2.2 and power difference.
 
Until my 02 I-4 5-spd Camry was totalled in a wreck, I too would range anywhere from 33 to 36 hwy, depending upon conditions. If I'm going to "settle" for mileage in this range, I'll take the substantially larger Camry over the smaller Cobalt.

From 88-98, I owned a 1988 Civic sedan, which not uncommonly would get me slightly over 40 mpg on a pure highway run. I'm sure I could do the same with a new one. Then I traded the Civic for a Regal GS. The first one was so bad, the dealer took it back and swapped me another at six months and 10k miles. The second was better, but still only a "D" grade car. I got sick of door handles that came off, the shift lever with 1/2 inch of unfixable slop in it, auto climate control that failed, the SC boost readout that failed, the loose seat track, the self-opening glove box, and on and on and on. As much as it saddens me to admit it, the G35 I drive today is vastly superior to the two 98 Regals I endured. And my wife's five year-old Sequoia has had one, just one, minor repair past wty, superior to the Sable wagon it replaced by a wide margin.

The Ecotec is a fine engine, but it will take a comparable car built around it to bring me back to the domestic side of the fence.
 
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