Ecotec

[pezzy669]

I test drove a Chevy Cobalt LT twice, car was extremely overpriced in my opinion (before GM realigned their prices). Honestly for how long GM waited to redesign this car, they could have done so much better. They basically were able to match the benchmark set back in 1998, but that seemed to be where they ran out of funding. HELLO GM it is 2006!

The hubby has a '02 Toyota Celica (the definitiion of tin can Japanese cars, the sheetmetal on this car is so thin you could break wind in its direction and cause a dent) but with 142k miles on the clock it is as solid as the day it drove off the lot. ZERO creaks and rattles, the only things done to it were regular maintenance (except a battery), it still gets 38MPG and to top that all off it has been in 2 accidents with 4k+ in repairs. Despite the mileage and accidents it is still worth 35+% of its original selling price....show me any domestic who can meet or beat all of the above.

 

[cousincletus]

Don't know the reason for the 34 mpg EPA rating, but I always got better than the EPA estimate with GM cars. 2002 Cavalier 33 EPA highway but has never got less than 30 mpg and best mpg has been 39 highway. Average highway roadtrip mileage has been 36.

 

[JHZR2]

quote:

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Originally posted by ekpolk:
Ecotec anyone? The original poster sought comment on this engine.

Earlier today, I asked why it is that this engine, surely a smooth and powerful I-4, can only muster mid-size gas mileage when installed in a small Cobalt. It's highway mileage rating (34 in the Cobalt) is identical to that of the I-4 Camry and Accord. The Cobalts Japanese competitors get 38-40 hwy (Civic) or even 41 mpg (Corolla). Sure, the Ecotec is a 2.2L, whereas the Civic and Corolla have sub-2.0L engines (which of course begs the question of why the Cobalt needs a 2.2L to keep up with the 1.8L competition...). My question seems to have been left on the table.

So, my question for lght1 and the others who are favoring the domestic brands, is why is GM's small car drive train so much less efficient than that of the overseas makers??? The Ecotec is a sweet, nice-to-drive engine, but if you're picking based upon economy (which a lot of folks are going to be doing...), why would you pick an Ecotec? 34 mpg vs. 41 mpg -- no brainer?

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Frankly, I think its because it is considered an attribute to be able to mash the 'go pedal' without any thought, and have it rapidly accleerate 10, 20+ MPH quickly. There is a certain type of gearing that is necessary to do this.

In driving a 2004 Honda civic AT across PA, I found that on hills and whatnot, when maintaining speed with trans kickdown, the car still wasnt as willing to just rapidly accelerate from 60-80 without thinking twice... in driving the rental ford focus about 1500 miles now in two weeks, Ive noted that it will scream from 60-70 or much higher in very short order, kicing down the gear with the slightest impetus, and rushing right up in speed.

A rental cobalt that I had down in TX would do the same thing... I think in the name of 'sportiness'

How the gearing and whatnot is setup is a major factor. I believe Brian noted that on the classic malibu platform, per the scangauge, the trans allowed engine load to increase to 90% before kicking down... on these supposedly sportier cars, like the cobalt and focus, the trans kick down almost instantaneously, with barely 1/16" movement in the throttle.

IMO this is the reason.

And IMO, manufacturers need to get over the stupid idea that their economy cars are 'sporty'. The toyota corolla, with the stupid ground effects and spoiler (and now the yaris has the same thing) is the worst example.

JMH

[ April 25, 2006, 07:13 AM: Message edited by: JHZR2 ]

 

[Colt]

quote:

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Originally posted by JHZR2:

And IMO, manufacturers need to get over the stupid idea that their economy cars are 'sporty'. The toyota corolla, with the stupid ground effects and spoiler (and now the yaris has the same thing) is the worst example.

JMH

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So true.

 

[ekpolk]

JMH:

quote:

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The toyota corolla, with the stupid ground effects and spoiler (and now the yaris has the same thing) is the worst example.

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Oh how right you are!!!! Such adornments on a Yaris or Corolla are as out of place, inappropriate, and senseless as a woman's wearing a string bikini at a funeral. If they gave me one of these cars, I'd drive it with a paperbag over my head until I could get that silliness stripped off! Gak!

 

[BrianWC]

I just don't know about the Japanese cars. I bought a Honda CR-V b/c of Honda's reliability and yes, it's never caused a day's trouble. But for what I paid, I was really let down by the acessories and general plastickiness of the thing. The doors sound like if you slam them harder, they'll explode. Same deal with my mother's accord. My parents were GM people all their lives and I convinced them to get an Accord. They love it but honestly, it just seems so delicate..everything's so insubstantial feeling. Now, the Honda V-6 is an awesome creature.

But...they work...my brother proudly brags to me all the time that he's only changed the oil 2-3 times in his 250k mile Tacoma 4x4. So, I dunno.

Maybe we should compromise and by the best of both worlds, the Chevy Aveo.

 

[Matt_S]

The Cobalt is also a heavier car than the Corolla (3216 and 2615 lbs respectively for the auto trans sedans). That 600 lbs is going to make a difference in fuel economy. I don't understand why GM didn't make the Cobalt lighter, but I think the combination of weight and gearing, as JHZR2 pointed out, is what makes the difference.

 

[lght1]

Hi

Given what has been the case at work, I would take a Cobalt or Malibu with the 2.2 over those rattle traps, not to mention the rust bucket next door.

The MPG of the rental Cobalt was just about what the Corolla gets, so I see no economy difference between these automatic trans cars.

As for reliability, my Olds in 220,000 miles has needed the following :

1. Alternator
2. Replaced the UIM with the Alum L26
3. Replacement ignition key, the security pellet needed replacement.

I see hardly any old Hondas or Toyota around. Most older units have alot of rust that they may still run well enough at 180-200,000 miles but corrosion prevents them from passing state mandated safety inspections.

Just a note, why is it that you never see a used camry as a taxi cab? There must be tons around, and if they were all that good..surely they would make a superiour cab as well.

But nada..zip..not a one. All there are seems to be is ancient GM "H" bodies...most with near 300,000 miles on them using the 3800 SII.

Many Toyota trucks over 6-8 yrs old here now sport wood bodies as their original boxes have long since departed this world.

 

[ekpolk]

1. The Toyotas and Infiniti I've had have all been tight as a drum. The Toyotas more so. The Infiniti had two small noise issues which the dealership did a fantastic job fixing. While they were doing so, I had a no-charge loaner G35 to drive for as long as they took to get the work done. I have seen no indication of corrosion on any of these cars at all. The reverent techs at my dealerships don't refer to the company's standard coolant as "RustCool" as the guy at my Buick store did.

2. My 5-spd Civic from 18 years ago did better than the Cobalt did for you. If gas mileage were the sole criterion, I'd take the lighter Civic. Eventually you're going to have to drive that Cobalt in the city. No contest then.

3. Be glad you didn't have one of my 98 Regals.

4. I see plenty of old imports and old domestics around here. I don't suffer from selective perception. You can keep a Yugo on the road indefinitely if you want to. Same for a Chevy or Toyota.

5. You probably don't see used Camrys as taxis because their owners are still loving and enjoying them.

6. We've got plenty of 6-7 year old Tundras and Tacos around here (older for the Tacos) and I'm not seeing the rust. Perhaps the wood boxes you describe are appearing because the owners like the truck so much, they're willing to do such things to keep an older one in service. I see the beds of similarly aged domestic pick-ups converted into light duty trailers. . .

Look, I can only live by my experience, and the same is true for you. There's nothing you can do to erase the memory of my Two Regal Debacle. Perhaps we should:

A) Be thankful that we live in a country where we can each make our own choices.

and

B) Be extra thankful that we live in a country where we can say things like this without fear of going to jail for saying the wrong thing.

I'm happy for you that your choices have worked out to your satisfaction.

 

[dailydriver]

quote:

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Originally posted by ekpolk:
Perhaps we should:

A) Be thankful that we live in a country where we can each make our own choices.

and

B) Be extra thankful that we live in a country where we can say things like this without fear of going to jail for saying the wrong thing.

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That's all great and fine, but what's it going to be like when Japan does have a say in our freedoms?? I will give up on, and leave this country when the ONLY choice I have is a $60K + Camry/Accord.

 

[zb11]

Wow........My original post was just a comment. I did not expect a firestorm of responses. My premise was that a ‘basic’ car, such as the Classic with a 4-cylinder, could give comfort and adequate performance in a mid-sized platform. I have never owned a car long enough (over 125K) to really know if it is worthy for long-term consideration. I have not owned bad GM cars. I have owned a few Toyotas and have been pleased. My brother has owned many GMs with over 200K. I now have two Honda Civics, an ’88 and ’05, and I am not pleased with the comfort level that the ’05 provides my middle-aged body (I like the '88 better). This was the premise of my original post; that a mid-sized GM vehicle that is not worth squat on the used market, could feel pretty good to drive for a weekend rental.

 

[ekpolk]

quote:

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Originally posted by dailydriver:
(...snip...)I will give up on, and leave this country when the ONLY choice I have is a $60K + Camry/Accord.

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Gee, that doesn't sound very patriotic. . .

IMO, the present state of affairs is a product of poor business leadership and management. One way or the other, sooner or later, US management will learn that obsessive, singular focus on today's profits ahead of all else is just not effective (of course, there are other issues too). The gap has, and continues to narrow. Americans are flexible, competitive survivors. I'm confident that whatever disparity exists in our cars is merely a transient condition. Don't go start investing in real estate in New Zealand just yet.

 

[ekpolk]

zb:

Welcom to BITOG, and the bottom of the black hole into which virtually all threads like this one plunge, sooner or later. Your question/comment was a fair one, and I hope you got some insight from the responses before the rugby* started.

* Notice how I used a foreign violent sport to make the point -- just for the provocative fun of it!

 

[wagsg]

I love the 2.2 Eco in my '03 Saturn L200. Easy to service, runs smooth, and will move me out of the way when the need arises. I've got 41K on it now and hope it stays that way for many a mile into the future.

I've heard people complain that it doesn't have enough "get up and go". That's not what it was built for, imho. You can shroud it in body pieces, spoilers, big wheels, or fancy (read obnoxious) exhaust but they are built for economy not speed.

 

[bar1]

quote:

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Originally posted by ekpolk:
Ecotec anyone?
.. why is GM's small car drive train so much less efficient than that of the overseas makers???

---

Do you get the Cobalt with the newest Ecotec 1.8 engine? The 140 hp version has better fuel economy numbers than the older 125 hp version.
That would do well compared to the competitors..
http://www.opel.de/shop/cars/astra/...GSlYqW!-1427379474!2084350091?engine=2H0&.act

 

[Colt]

quote:

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Originally posted by bar1:

Do you get the Cobalt with the newest Ecotec 1.8 engine? The 140 hp version has better fuel economy numbers than the older 125 hp version.
That would do well compared to the competitors..
http://www.opel.de/shop/cars/astra/...GSlYqW!-1427379474!2084350091?engine=2H0&.act

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At least for '06 the 1.8L isn't offered in the Cobalt.
I just bought one for my son.
A Cobalt LT with the 2.2.

Coupe and sedan body styles are available, with a sporty SS Supercharged coupe filling the top spot with its 205-horsepower engine. Other Cobalts come with a solid-performing 145-hp, 2.2-liter four-cylinder, while a midgrade SS coupe and sedan feature a peppy 171-hp version

 

[lght1]

Hi

Hardly "Selective perception"..lol

There are no Toys and Hondas in my area as taxis because of the poundings cabs take and the corrosive atmosphere they operate in.

There are enough of a inventory of older toys ( although with considerable oxidation around the lower doors and rocker panels) that one would think at least one cab would be a old camry...but nada..zip, not a one.

This "perception" is from someone who drives 12-1300 miles per week and sees a lot of traffic.

As for "selective perceptions"...that all toys and hondas are enjoyed to the end of their days by their original owners is not reasonable.

Regarding the wood bodies on these trucks..its because the steel (?)body has rusted to the point of the vehicle not passing state inspection laws, that a few basic carpentry skills are necessary here but not on a domestic.

My brother has a 1998 GMC K1500 with a diamond snowplow which is used commercially throughout the season and has not a trace of body corrosion. This truck works its 350cid hard and often puts in 12-14 hr days when needed. The trans has never been an issue as its 4L60E gets new fluid several times a year.

However, his friend and co-worker has a 1997 Toy (taco?) which lost its tailgate to cancer several years back, and is now in search of a replacement bed. It has nasty holes in both sides.

This taco is not used commercially

but merely as a daily driver. Perhaps the toy's powertrain will last forever, but the corrosive road chemicals are driving this old girl to extinction.

I suspect that the GMC will be working for many more seasons. When Liquid Glass is applied to the K1500, it still looks quite stunning.

The toy owner, even after going to Home Depot for his wood body, will always be in a constant fight for his trucks survival against rot. The most likely source of issues next will be floor boards and cab mounts.

One can often go back to a 1992 or '93 model yr domestic truck and not be concerned with corrosion. Simply stated, thats not a realistic prospect for the "others".

As for the cobalt, it has only ever had the 2.2 eco as does the malibu (4cyl) whereas the G6 gets the new 2.4 version.

Looking back... I dont think i'll post agin in this thread regarding anything but the ecotech.

You like the toys and such, so good luck. I prefer the GM H and W cars as I have driven over 500,000 miles in the past decade and have been more than pleased with each car's service.

If I go all the way back to the very early 90's and my '89 Olds 98 Regency, I shudder to think just how many miles I've put in behind GM's 3800 Series I and II V6.

[ April 26, 2006, 12:08 AM: Message edited by: lght1 ]

 

[Colt]

quote:

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Originally posted by lght1:
Hi

Hardly "Selective perception"..lol

There are no Toys and Hondas in my area as taxis because of the poundings cabs take and the corrosive atmosphere they operate in.

.

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I'm seeing more and more Toyoya Sienna taxis in New York city.
A long way too catch up to the Crown Victoria but you never know.

 

[Minou]

quote:

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Originally posted by Colt:

quote:

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Originally posted by lght1:
Hi

Hardly "Selective perception"..lol

There are no Toys and Hondas in my area as taxis because of the poundings cabs take and the corrosive atmosphere they operate in.

.

---

I'm seeing more and more Toyoya Sienna taxis in New York city.
A long way too catch up to the Crown Victoria but you never know.

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In Montreal, where gas is the most expensive in North America, Toyota (4 cylinder) Camry taxis are all over the place now.

They cost more than off lease large american sedans but are probably cheaper to run on the long haul.

 

[ekpolk]

quote:

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Originally posted by Minou:
(...snip...)
In Montreal, where gas is the most expensive in North America, Toyota (4 cylinder) Camry taxis are all over the place now.

They cost more than off lease large american sedans but are probably cheaper to run on the long haul.

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Hmmmmm, 4-cyl Camrys as taxis -- in icy Montreal -- nothing corrosive to deal with up there. . . Keeping it somewhat pertinent, are there, by chance, any Ecotec-powered Malibus performing the same duty?

I wonder, rhetorically, why the Camrys cost more than the large American sedans. The unavoidable mechanics of the Supply-and-Demand rule always seem to get to the bottom of things. Four-cylinder Camrys, no less. . .

A colleague of mine stills gets around in the 95 Camry she bought new, almost 12 years ago. It's a 4-cyl XLE model (most luxurious in the CE/LE/SE/XLE structure). It still looks and feels like a "Junior Lexus", inside and out.