Driving Aides

[Nick R]

Originally Posted By: rslifkin
I absolutely can't stand traction control, stability control, etc. Not because it's never helpful, but because it often fights what I'm trying to do (I've had friends get stuck in the snow and not be able to get the car to move, but by turning off TC, they were able to drive it out with a little wheelspin and effort).

To avoid wheelspin, I'd much rather have a limited slip diff than the idiotic idea of applying the brakes on one side to make the other side get power. Plus, the car cutting the throttle is just annoying, and could be dangerous. For example: if I take off quickly in the rain, I often spin the back tires a little across a stop line. If the thing cut the power every time this happened, I would be incredibly annoyed!

ABS isn't so bad. The system on my Jeep is pretty good, so I don't find it terribly intrusive. I have thought about adding a kill switch for those few times I want to be sure it won't engage.


Though I did mention the properties of acting like a LSD, it's true that when stuck, turning off TC does often help. That I will admit, but in most driving situations, TC does help.

 

[cchase]

Originally Posted By: Nick R

ABS allows for faster stopping distances, dry wet or snowy.


The problem is that ABS does not decrease stopping distances under most circumstances, it increases them. The only actual advantages to ABS are that you can stand on the pedal and not lock up, and that you can retain some steering ability under this simulated lock-up.

A vehicle without ABS will outbrake an ABS-equipped vehicle on dry pavement if the driver uses common sense and keeps the tire from locking up with the non-ABS vehicle.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: A_Harman
I don't think traction and stability control systems are mandated by NHTSA in cars yet, but they will be in a few years.

It is mandatory on all vehicles with gross vehicle weight of 10,000 lbs or less as of 2012 model year, so basically it is in effect already on all vehicles rolling off the assembly lines right now.

http://www.nhtsa.gov/DOT/NHTSA/Rulemaking/Rules/Associated Files/ESC_FR_03_2007.pdf

 

[NateDN10]

IMHO, I'd rather have ABS and TC.

I'm not a race car driver, and I don't have the expertise or hair-trigger reaction times that would make me better than a computer system. These systems react in tens of milliseconds, when it would take a human a second or more to react.

I also think that new driver training should be improved, and people should know about these systems and what their limitations are.

 

[Nick R]

Originally Posted By: KrisZ
That's why when you turn, your foot should be off the brake pedal and yes I do pump the brake pedal whenerver I loose traction and the situation needs it, I don't have to remember it though because it is second nature by now. You know, those empty parking lots during snow storms can be very useful training ground for winter driving

Someone pulls out in front of you suddenly, giving you limited time to react. You slam on the brakes, and jerk the steering wheel. With ABS, you can avoid the collision altogether. Without it, you will likely plow straight into them because of no steering control. A one car accident will likely be less serious than a collision.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Nick R

Of course not. It's not like the car is driving for them. They still have to pay attention, use turn signals, stuff like that. But we are talking about ABS, and TC. ABS allows for faster stopping distances, dry wet or snowy. It also allows you to retain control in panic stop scenarios. Locked front wheels means zero control, just plow straight ahead.

TC helps prevent wheelspin, by acting as a makeshift limited slip diff, using the brakes. People don't complain about limited slip diffs, so why complain about TC?

Driver aids are exactly that- aids. The person behind the wheel is still responsible for the car. Some people are idiots and text, apply makeup, whatever while driving. Not having ABS/TC isn't going to change that.

It's the same with safety features. People complain that airbags and stronger cars are making them heavier. Well, they also mean that when your kid is in the backseat, and you are t-boned by joe blow texting while eating a doughnut, s/he survives. But some people will still complain, wishing all cars had the impact properties of chinese cars, which accordian like they are made of tinfoil.



But then cars could be sold at Walmart along with all the other Chinese junk Nick!

 

[Nick R]

Originally Posted By: cchase
Originally Posted By: Nick R

ABS allows for faster stopping distances, dry wet or snowy.


The problem is that ABS does not decrease stopping distances under most circumstances, it increases them. The only actual advantages to ABS are that you can stand on the pedal and not lock up, and that you can retain some steering ability under this simulated lock-up.

A vehicle without ABS will outbrake an ABS-equipped vehicle on dry pavement if the driver uses common sense and keeps the tire from locking up with the non-ABS vehicle.



I want you to watch the episode of top gear, where they have to buy 3 cars for less than 100 GBP. A heavy volvo with ABS, a small Rover, and Audi, both without. the volvo stopped significantly shorter because of ABS, versus the much lighter Rover and Audi, without.

 

[NateDN10]

Originally Posted By: cchase
A vehicle without ABS will outbrake an ABS-equipped vehicle on dry pavement if the driver uses common sense and keeps the tire from locking up with the non-ABS vehicle.

But this requires experience that most drivers don't have. You have to know what it feels like to modulate the brakes so they're right on the edge of locking. In an emergency, most drivers don't have this presence of mind, and simply slam on the brakes as hard as possible.

 

[Nick R]

Originally Posted By: NateDN10
Originally Posted By: cchase
A vehicle without ABS will outbrake an ABS-equipped vehicle on dry pavement if the driver uses common sense and keeps the tire from locking up with the non-ABS vehicle.

But this requires experience that most drivers don't have. You have to know what it feels like to modulate the brakes so they're right on the edge of locking. In an emergency, most drivers don't have this presence of mind, and simply slam on the brakes as hard as possible.


I don't know of anyone, that will do anything but slam on the brakes when a child jumps out in front of their car.

 

[A_Harman]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
I don't think traction and stability control systems are mandated by NHTSA in cars yet, but they will be in a few years.

It is mandatory on all cars as of 2012 model year, so basically it is in effect already on all cars rolling off the assembly lines right now.

http://www.nhtsa.gov/DOT/NHTSA/Rulemaking/Rules/Associated Files/ESC_FR_03_2007.pdf


Interesting. Thanks for the update.

 

[cchase]

Originally Posted By: NateDN10
Originally Posted By: cchase
A vehicle without ABS will outbrake an ABS-equipped vehicle on dry pavement if the driver uses common sense and keeps the tire from locking up with the non-ABS vehicle.

But this requires experience that most drivers don't have. You have to know what it feels like to modulate the brakes so they're right on the edge of locking. In an emergency, most drivers don't have this presence of mind, and simply slam on the brakes as hard as possible.

It's not that hard, especially on systems that were designed to operate without ABS and offer more modulation than ABS-equipped systems.

As far as Top Gear, really? I like that show as much as everyone else, but it's ridiculous to claim that a comparison of some junkers in dubious condition with questionable brakes and tires somehow shows the truth of braking ability between ABS and non-ABS systems.

 

[KrisZ]

Originally Posted By: Nick R
Someone pulls out in front of you suddenly, giving you limited time to react. You slam on the brakes, and jerk the steering wheel...



That's what perhaps 99% of drivers out there would do, remember I never said that those aids were bad, but they impede MY driving.


In the scenario above, and I am talking from experience, as I've done it before, I would slam on the brakes, if I judged that I am not going to stop in time, I would release the brake and jerk the steering wheel. Sure it sounds complicated and time consuming, but trust me, it's done in one fluid motion.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Originally Posted By: Nick R
Someone pulls out in front of you suddenly, giving you limited time to react. You slam on the brakes, and jerk the steering wheel...



That's what perhaps 99% of drivers out there would do, remember I never said that those aids were bad, but they impede MY driving.


In the scenario above, and I am talking from experience, as I've done it before, I would slam on the brakes, if I judged that I am not going to stop in time, I would release the brake and jerk the steering wheel. Sure it sounds complicated and time consuming, but trust me, it's done in one fluid motion.


It's the Canadian.

I would further your process by simultaneously stabbing the 4x4 switch and engaging in an epic drift, while the theme to Bonanza plays in the background

 

[Nick R]

Fine, here are some interesting videos.

ABS Off


Same car, ABS on

 

[cchase]

No one here has argued that a locked up wheel stops better than an ABS system.

 

[A_Harman]

Originally Posted By: Nick R

It's the same with safety features. People complain that airbags and stronger cars are making them heavier. Well, they also mean that when your kid is in the backseat, and you are t-boned by joe blow texting while eating a doughnut, s/he survives. But some people will still complain, wishing all cars had the impact properties of chinese cars, which accordian like they are made of tinfoil.



Those Chinese cars with the impact properties of tinfoil cannot be sold in the US.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Originally Posted By: Nick R

It's the same with safety features. People complain that airbags and stronger cars are making them heavier. Well, they also mean that when your kid is in the backseat, and you are t-boned by joe blow texting while eating a doughnut, s/he survives. But some people will still complain, wishing all cars had the impact properties of chinese cars, which accordian like they are made of tinfoil.



Those Chinese cars with the impact properties of tinfoil cannot be sold in the US.

YET!

 

[Nick R]

Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Originally Posted By: Nick R

It's the same with safety features. People complain that airbags and stronger cars are making them heavier. Well, they also mean that when your kid is in the backseat, and you are t-boned by joe blow texting while eating a doughnut, s/he survives. But some people will still complain, wishing all cars had the impact properties of chinese cars, which accordian like they are made of tinfoil.



Those Chinese cars with the impact properties of tinfoil cannot be sold in the US.


Have you ever seen a cavalier crash test? Not much better. Or a neon?

 

[KrisZ]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Originally Posted By: Nick R
Someone pulls out in front of you suddenly, giving you limited time to react. You slam on the brakes, and jerk the steering wheel...



That's what perhaps 99% of drivers out there would do, remember I never said that those aids were bad, but they impede MY driving.


In the scenario above, and I am talking from experience, as I've done it before, I would slam on the brakes, if I judged that I am not going to stop in time, I would release the brake and jerk the steering wheel. Sure it sounds complicated and time consuming, but trust me, it's done in one fluid motion.


It's the Canadian.

I would further your process by simultaneously stabbing the 4x4 switch and engaging in an epic drift, while the theme to Bonanza plays in the background

All of that in slow motion

 

[ddrumman2004]

To each his own.

As for me, I'm not bothered by the fact that my vehicle has ABS.

I have a lot more things I could worry about.....but I don't. Life's too short.