Other direct injection engines have also shown fuel dilution problems. The new 2.0T by VW/Audi and I believe I saw a Mazda direct inject engine show fuel dilution. It would be interesting to see if other DI engines (e.g. BMW, etc) also show this trend. Perhaps its the oils that haven't caught up to the new technology and not purely an RS4 design problem.
Double-Super-Secret 5W-40 Audi RS4 Racing Oil
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Why are only xxw40 oils considered for this engine? Redline should be interesting. No xw30 or xw50?
Yes, one can't help but wonder that.
I've been in contact with Audi, and their official non-response is that fuel dilution as high as 2-3% are completely normal and the engine can handle it. However, there is an admission that high fuel dilution may have an impact on oil degradation. At this point, I believe much of their testing was done with the European engine, which runs in lean burn mode a significant amount of the time. This will decrease the problem, since it allows fuel to vaporize. An oil sample of a European RS4 confirms lower dilution.
5W-40 in the US. 5W-30 in Europe. Based on our testing, it appears that the engine wants to see 40W oils at the rings. 30W oils seem to be specified in Europe due to the shorter driving cycles.
VeeDubb, yes this is probably a generic problem with some DI engine designs. It also seems to be exacerbated by Alusil cylinder walls. Other Alusil, non-DI engines seem to have higher dilution, also.
""Bruce, I don't mean to be argumentative, but I take exception to your sweeping assumptions and declarations about the composition and performance of BioSyn, without any first hand knowledge of the oil. I know that you want to believe that the HOBS component of the oil is the same as you may have tested years ago. My understanding is that it is not. But, there are other components in the blend, some obvious, some non-obvious, that lead to the performance we are seeing, and Terry is talking about.""
You can take exceptions to what I say thats fine the fact of the matter if you would read anything I posted is this was fist presented as ALL HOBO it is not and in that regard it maybe fine MY post were toward problems using a 100% HOBO.
""My understanding is that it is not""
Now how the ____ do you know that you have NO idea what I use.
I use Hybrid HOBO NOW and I take exseption from you or terry or bill or ??? about I do not know what oils are avalible I currently use this type HOBO and I'm fully aware of advancments made in ths field the oils have got better but NOT as good a a GPII or GPIII in any oxidation test I know of using same formulations.
Also why no Fuchs or RL in your tests??
bruce
You may have noticed that the oils tested against this RLI oil were GPI SJ oils give me a break eben back then you could far exceed the perfromance of a SJ oil so I do believe that a HOBO with a 25% add pak will beat a OLD style SJ with a 8% add pak.
You can take exceptions to what I say thats fine the fact of the matter if you would read anything I posted is this was fist presented as ALL HOBO it is not and in that regard it maybe fine MY post were toward problems using a 100% HOBO.
""My understanding is that it is not""
Now how the ____ do you know that you have NO idea what I use.
I use Hybrid HOBO NOW and I take exseption from you or terry or bill or ??? about I do not know what oils are avalible I currently use this type HOBO and I'm fully aware of advancments made in ths field the oils have got better but NOT as good a a GPII or GPIII in any oxidation test I know of using same formulations.
Also why no Fuchs or RL in your tests??
bruce
You may have noticed that the oils tested against this RLI oil were GPI SJ oils give me a break eben back then you could far exceed the perfromance of a SJ oil so I do believe that a HOBO with a 25% add pak will beat a OLD style SJ with a 8% add pak.
bruce raises a good point. The RLI 5w-30 is also API SJ. Noak 11.8%. All the others tested were SM. A good comparison oil might have been Redline/Fuchs.
No doubt though, you are getting much lower wear from this oil and that is all that matters.
No doubt though, you are getting much lower wear from this oil and that is all that matters.
G-Man, Many companies have green lighted some stupid things in the past. GM gave use the Turbo Vega motor that would self destruct no matter what oil you ran in it. They also gave us the air cooled wounder in the Corvair wich had some issues in terms of durability not to mention high speed handleing. Toyota gave us some sludge prone engine designs. Audi and Chrysler's gave us some sludge prone designs. NASA had the whole O-Ring issue. When money talks and OK is good enough all manner of things can be pushed through!I almost forgot how long GM had been cranking out leak prone V6's!!!This is why I have a low opinion of engineers for the most part! the way i figure it as your intelligence increases so does your responsibility to those less intelligent.
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Also why no Fuchs or RL in your tests??
bruce
When I first started this project, I stayed with Audi 502 Approved oils for warranty reasons, as did almost all other owners. Otherwise I would have tryed Redline 5W-40. I also would have tried Fuch Titan GT 504 5-30, which is approved in Europe. However I was unable to find it available in the US. Later on, I've learned from reputable sources in the UK that Fuch Titan GT is the Audi factory fill. If that is the case, then we have a good record of it's performance, and it does not perform as well as BioSyn.
At this point, I have an oil that is working, and will be further tweaked for even better performance, so there is no reason for me to test Redline. I know of no Audi RS4 owner who uses Redline. If I did, I would pay for the analysis myself. I wouldn't recommend it to others, since it is not Audi approved and I have no knowledge of how it will perform under high fuel dilution.
Also why no Fuchs or RL in your tests??
bruce
When I first started this project, I stayed with Audi 502 Approved oils for warranty reasons, as did almost all other owners. Otherwise I would have tryed Redline 5W-40. I also would have tried Fuch Titan GT 504 5-30, which is approved in Europe. However I was unable to find it available in the US. Later on, I've learned from reputable sources in the UK that Fuch Titan GT is the Audi factory fill. If that is the case, then we have a good record of it's performance, and it does not perform as well as BioSyn.
At this point, I have an oil that is working, and will be further tweaked for even better performance, so there is no reason for me to test Redline. I know of no Audi RS4 owner who uses Redline. If I did, I would pay for the analysis myself. I wouldn't recommend it to others, since it is not Audi approved and I have no knowledge of how it will perform under high fuel dilution.
all valid points good luck in tweaking it, hope you do not go to far or wrong direction.
bruce
bruce
As a further side note, there are specific features of the oil I am using that have been engineered specifically to fight and survive fuel dilution from direct injection in the RS4 by Terry and Bill. I don't know for sure, but I suspect that any other off the shelf oil, no matter how good, would be a step backwards in this regards. And to get a good reliable set of oil analysis readings would take several changes and 10K miles, longer than I'd like to wait. However, performance car owners are fickle, and one day I may very well run into someone in the RS4 or R8 community that has decided to use RL (or some other oil) and will be willing to take a few samples. At least if it happens, we have a large enough record, with 44 oil samples across 13 vehicles, to make an informed comparison.
bruce, I doubt you are using or have experience with the RLI or Garmiers formulas as most are patented. I have shared what we can here, suffice it to say that the formulas are blowing away ANYTHING I could source for the issue. No one ever said these were 100% anything. Formulations obviously vary and %'s are adjusted accordingly. Bill Garmier of RLI does have formulas that will match or exceed most of the bases you are touting and if you need sourcing for your companies formulas I highly recommend them as a supplier. His patented add packs are very advanced and exotic, not to mention the BIOSYN fully formulated lube doing exactly what the customer wants, longer drains with nearly 0 wear in an engine that eats itself.
I don't give a spit what a base oil stand alone oxidation test shows, I want affordable performance for the customer. Whoever I get it from. actual oxidation readings in use are nil. Both internal and external oxidation control is amazing to me.
These RLI formula's can clean without giving up lubricity, no oil until RLI's would do that without giving up lubricity. Testing is ongoing but the search for a lube that can clean without killing its natural lubricity may be over folks.
BTW I am under ND with RLI and by extention so is the customer, I hate discussing publicly ongoing R&D but was willing to share what I could since it is exciting to SOLVE problems with good old USA ingenuity!
Cheers.
I don't give a spit what a base oil stand alone oxidation test shows, I want affordable performance for the customer. Whoever I get it from. actual oxidation readings in use are nil. Both internal and external oxidation control is amazing to me.
These RLI formula's can clean without giving up lubricity, no oil until RLI's would do that without giving up lubricity. Testing is ongoing but the search for a lube that can clean without killing its natural lubricity may be over folks.
BTW I am under ND with RLI and by extention so is the customer, I hate discussing publicly ongoing R&D but was willing to share what I could since it is exciting to SOLVE problems with good old USA ingenuity!
Cheers.
Maybe you can clear me up about fuel dilution which will lower flash increaseing oxidation and thus oil thickening.
Since oils can be blended with both thicker and THINNER oils to vary the viscosity IMHO there is no way to fight oil thinning due to fuel dilution, unless the fuel was Not miscible in the oil and settled out or the oil thickens with oxidation as fast as it thins with fuel dilution.
Simple physics ALL OILs when mixed with a thiner oil will thin or did I miss someting.
bruce
Since oils can be blended with both thicker and THINNER oils to vary the viscosity IMHO there is no way to fight oil thinning due to fuel dilution, unless the fuel was Not miscible in the oil and settled out or the oil thickens with oxidation as fast as it thins with fuel dilution.
Simple physics ALL OILs when mixed with a thiner oil will thin or did I miss someting.
bruce
I would be more inclined to see your good shear stability results due to a very shaer stable oil blend compared to the other brands give no shear loss and not a issue with fuel dilution.
As I see it, there are really three aspects of fighting dilution, understanding that I am no expert here.
1) Reduce the initial dilution rate.
2) Support vaporization of fuel in the oil.
3) Limit or contain chemical reaction between the fuel and the oil.
A formulation that supports 1 and 2 will decrease the average fuel dilution. Obviously the add pack has primary influence over 3.
1) Reduce the initial dilution rate.
2) Support vaporization of fuel in the oil.
3) Limit or contain chemical reaction between the fuel and the oil.
A formulation that supports 1 and 2 will decrease the average fuel dilution. Obviously the add pack has primary influence over 3.
""Bill Garmier of RLI does have formulas that will match or exceed most of the bases you are touting and if you need sourcing for your companies formulas I highly recommend them as a supplier.""
You are mixing "formulated" and "bases" to diferent things Formulated will most always beat a "base" alone.
I Have no need and if I did beleive me when I tell you I would have some of the best in the business take a look with me and verify and I would take that to the bank, I have enough headaches as it is do not need anymore things on the "plate".
bruce
You are mixing "formulated" and "bases" to diferent things Formulated will most always beat a "base" alone.
I Have no need and if I did beleive me when I tell you I would have some of the best in the business take a look with me and verify and I would take that to the bank, I have enough headaches as it is do not need anymore things on the "plate".
bruce
yeah but how do you do #1 and how do you do #2
bruce
The key and newer idea you might be missing is the effect of aromatic damage to a certain molecules, and finding those chemistries that resist that damage better than the conventional formulating is currently aware of. I'm no formulator.
I just test for them. Please get your boss to consider using our services so we can explain more.
Terry
Terry
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